Questions about the "Bardic origin of Tarot" theory

[DianeOD]

Would like to better understand...

....connected in a descriptive way to the lore of trees seen through Bardic eyes, and also to how Man came to be as described by the Stars in the way of Bards

Could veniceboard please clarify this point? Thanks

 

[firemaiden]

I can see that Venice Bard is a very serious person, and not joking around, so I agree, we owe it to him to try to understand where he is coming from, but I am still not understanding the very most basic premises of the bardic origin hypothesis. Perhaps someone who has followed along a little better than me can help? What allows the idea in the first place that celtic alphabets could have something to do with the tarot?

Or maybe -- I need to understand how you define tarot. If we suppose that the word "tarot" applies to a deck of cards specifically made of paper (not leather, or wood, or papyrus, or stones), and 22 precisely described trump images created by woodcut technique we have no other artefactual basis from which to draw conclusions beyond the earliest extant actual cards, the earliest european fabrication of paper, the earliest written mentions, and the earliest known wood-cuts --

If on the other hand, you choose to define tarot loosely as a highly variable assemblage of scenes existing independently of their order or number or their support (paper), or fabrication, well then, the sky is the limit on origin hypotheses -- after all -- many of the trumps are "topoi" -- very common topics/images that are attested in literature the beginning of recorded time -- like the guy with the cup and balls.

However if you define tarot this loosely, tarot becomes all of culture. That's an awfully broad scope -- we might as well seek to explain the beginning of infinity.

I think that the best we can hope for in an exploration of celtic alphabets is to show that there is a very early divination method in Europe which uses some ideas/imagery which have counterparts in tarot . I would be very surprised if other divination methods -- like the throwing of shells and bones did not also show similar ideas/imagery -- like "mother", "father", "house", "storm", "love" etc. --- these concepts are the very basis of language, and human culture.

The devil, however, as everyone is fond of saying, is in the details. Just because you can show that tarot trumps and celtic alphabets share common topoi, does not mean that one gave birth to the other.

 

[Baroli]

I can see that Venice Bard is a very serious person, and not joking around, so I agree, we owe it to him to try to understand where he is coming from, but I am still not understanding the very most basic premises of the bardic origin hypothesis. Perhaps someone who has followed along a little better than me can help? What allows the idea in the first place that celtic alphabets could have something to do with the tarot?

Or maybe -- I need to understand how you define tarot. If we suppose that the word "tarot" applies to a deck of cards specifically made of paper (not leather, or wood, or papyrus, or stones), and 22 precisely described trump images created by woodcut technique we have no other artefactual basis from which to draw conclusions beyond the earliest extant actual cards, the earliest european fabrication of paper, the earliest written mentions, and the earliest known wood-cuts --

I agree with you FM, I have followed this thread as well as some others, and I am not seeing the bardic connection at all, although I would like to understand what allows the celtic alphabet to have something to do with the tarot. I have looked through the various articles and would like VB if he would to offer an explanation of his thesis as well. I am sure we could all benefit from VB's knowledge.

In short,....show me, please.


Baroli

 

[venicebard]

My question to VB is this (and it will only take one sentence my friend ) Where is there any actual Bardic images- not shorthand markings - Images/Pictures that are around? One rock carving will do, on an elephant tusk even, one recognisable picture from the Bards aside from Tarot cards? Don't be cheeky now, and give me a letter like Water. ~Rosanne

Good question. I have not explored visual imagery much (save tarot itself) but rather focused on poetic thought and the natural symbols thereof (scouring Troubadour poetry, for instance, for the occasional 'slip' whereby they betray a bardic bent even to a non-Occitan-speaker). And your question has stirred me to think it a new direction for my research: analysis of Arthurian themes in the art of the day, and so on.

I'll get back to you on this one (but it may take a while).

 

[venicebard]

(Just a quick tap, sans riposte.)

If one were to post that Aliens brought the Tarot to the human race in 5,000 BC – you’d reasonably and necessarily request proof.

No, I don't think I would, myself.

Cool – So then let’s stop treating as a proven fact.

Ah, now I see the problem. I shall do as you ask, even though I think it obvious because it is the least convoluted, most direct explanation; but obviously when speaking of things for which there is no 'smoking gun' -- and even ofttimes when there is -- one is in the realm of theory. (I only hope others will reciprocate by not stating as established fact the theory that TdM did not appear long before the earliest examples that have survived.

And let’s stop with the cyber-bullying, you're better than that.

I'm sorry, but it never occurred to me that logical argument would be construed as 'bullying': I shall cease immediately. But I hope I will still be allowed the occasional grin while I'm posting, in hopes someone might sense my occasional dry quip.

Perhaps if one were to do away with the terms ‘Bardic Origins’ and replace it with, “apparent Bardic connections” we’d be in better agreement.

I shall take this under serious consideration (not meant sarcastically).

Best wishes.

And to you.

 

[venicebard]

DianeOD:

The entire sentence was this:

It is connected in a descriptive way to the lore of trees seen through Bardic eyes, and also to how Man came to be as described by the Stars in the way of Bards with their language shorthand- runic type markings.

. . . to which you queried:

Could veniceboard please clarify this point? Thanks

The trees speak largely for themselves, through their physical nature and their folklore. The other bit, about the Stars, I do not completely follow, but I believe she means my inclusion of the zodiac symbol in my calculations of what the bards knew. But I am concerned with the zodiac of signs, not of stars, as I consider the former the original. The sign aries or spring equinox is a ram not because someone thought they saw one in that region of the heavens at some point in time but because rams butt heads, and spring springs up, towards the head. And taurus is the neck or throat (what is up and slightly forward), hence symbolized by a bull, whose neck is proverbial (have you heard the expression 'bull neck'?), and in the north (according to Barry Fell) by an elk (which I have confirmed from the fact that the bardic Ss at taurus is named *algiz, 'elk', in runic), and elks also have magnificent necks or throats. The twins, gemini, are the twin shoulders; the crab, cancer, is at right angles to the start of things (crabs walk sideways); and so on (though not necessarily quite this clear in every case).

I know little about the stars themselves, only that many ancient inscriptions were for the purpose of labeling the spot on the horizon the rising of a particular star or constellation at which marked some important holiday. However: there is much in the ancient record attesting to the fact that the druids were highly accomplished astronomers (among other things), and bards were the inheritors of the druids' knowledge, including (surely) the placement of equinoxes and solstices on the round.

 

[venicebard]

What allows the idea in the first place that celtic alphabets could have something to do with the tarot?

Their importance to the same bards who brought 'the matter of Britain' to the Continent.

Or maybe -- I need to understand how you define tarot.

I have the narrowest definition of tarot of anyone here: I consider it to mean the Tarot of Marseilles, though I am willing to consider a few early variants (such as trump XXI's) might shed further light on meaning.

 

[venicebard]

VB, I've updated the table again. Please give me some feed back on it. As I've asked before, I'd like to add the hebrew letters next. Will you let me know where you think each should be placed, or is there a standard system that you use that I can copy from?

Are there hebrew letters enough? I would think we should add additional ones as well if they help illustrate the pictographic meaning.

The early Hebrew or Canaanite forms (whence Phoenician itself seemingly sprang) might be instructive even without specific discussion thereconcerning. The square-Hebrew forms (modern Hebrew, dating from after the Captivity), on the other hand, really should be given in conjunction with the parsing of Keltic letters by Judaic tradition (Sefer Yetzirah), because their shapes are based primarily on physiology -- samekh is a head, cheyt the shoulders, kaf the kidneys, and so on -- and exact physiological placement involves the division into 3 mothers, 7 doubles, and 12 simples (found in Sefer Yetzirah).

The letter-trump correlation bardic numeration dictates is:

0: cheyt
I: alef
II: heh
III: zayin
IIII: ayin
V: beyt
VI: mem
VII: peh
VIII: samekh
VIIII: kaf
X: gimel
XI: tav
XII: dalet
XIII: nun
XIIII: lamedh
XV: reysh
XVI: shin
XVII: vav
XVIII: qof
XVIIII: yod
XX: tzaddi
XXI: teyt

Teyt has to be bardic Aa, by default, but since teyt is a crossed circle, the alchemical symbol for earth, it is easy to see it as the equator and thus as the palm Aa. The sound-shifts from bardic vowels to Semitic consonants is a discussion in itself, but since yod is (to me, at least) obviously Graves's hypothesized Ii, mistletoe/loranthus, I do not think it a stretch in the least.

(I will try to find a source online for the forms of early Hebrew/Canaanite and edit it into this post.)

I don't know if you intended that I do a bit of editing of the spiels in the table, but there are probably a few that could benefit from a slight re-wording for the table format. I would be glad to focus on that a bit, once I've had time (hopefully Monday) to explain to the readers of this thread the exact dynamic between zodiac and calendar, that is, explained the simple subtleties of the round (and how it determines the symbolic meanings in the first place).

Thanx,
VB

[Edited-ins:]

Hey! I found a snippet from the old 19th-century theory of hieratic origins of Semitic letters (for any who think I made it up): http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/...f Hieroglyphics Hieratic Phoenician (a la.htm
(I take duck to have been tav, however, and what they call 'throne' to be gimel; interesting, though, that kaf is virgo, the 9th sign, and the Bahir calls 9th (9th Sefirah) the Throne. However, that hieroglyph is identified by Gardiner as 'stand with jar', and I myself take it to picture the alchemical oven, since it contains the upward-pointing triangle, the alchemical symbol for fire.

 

[Baroli]

Originally Posted by firemaiden
What allows the idea in the first place that celtic alphabets could have something to do with the tarot?

Their importance to the same bards who brought 'the matter of Britain' to the Continent.

This is not answer I am afraid, it's a justification or perhaps a supposition. I asked the same question as Firemaiden and was expecting something more than the equivalent of "because I said so."

So I will pose the question again: What allows the idea in the first place that celtic alphabets could have something to do with the tarot? What proof do you have that this may be so? I would be very interested in learning about this.

 

[Debra]

I think this may be a case of non-causal correspondence.