reconsidering a cathar connection

[Namadev]

Resurrcetion : final separation of the souls out of the bodies

So, they did believe in the resurrection .
But the final separtion at the end of time isn't of the body but of the souls : Cathari believe in the eternity of Souls coming out of the bodies at the End of Time.

(Arras, discours contre les Cathares 1200)

 

[Namadev]

So, in fine, Cathari did believe in Last Judgment.
But, in difference to the Catholic faith, they believed of the Eternity of Souls in Christ and not of the bodies .

 

[mjhurst]

Hi, Alain,

After all that quibbling, it sounds as if you are saying that Bob was exactly correct over ten years ago, (Aug 26, 2000), when he posted this to TarotL. (It is now reposted on tarot.com.)

Perhaps, the most serious problem with seeing the Tarot as a Cathar product is the Angel (later called Judgment) card. This card shows the orthodox Catholic dogma of the resurrection of the body. At the end of time, the souls of the blessed will be reunited with their bodies which will rise, miraculously uncorrupted, from their graves. Obviously, the idea of reuniting the freed spirits with their evil bodies would be totally anathema to the Cathari (Bynum, 1995). The Cathari totally rejected the doctrine of the resurrection of the body (Lansing, 1998). They had a concept of a final Judgment, but that was a judgment of spirits--separating those who had freed themselves from matter from those who remained entrapped. There is nothing in their concept that corresponds to bodies rising from graves as shown on the Tarot image.

Best regards,
Michael

 

[Namadev]

Mickael

I'm quoting the Cathari 's texts : maybe could Ross translate ?


« Et Jean interrogea le Seigneur sur le jour du Jugement :
...

Et le Seigneur ordonnera à son ange de sonner de la trompette. La voix de l’Archange dans la trompette sera entendue depuis le ciel jusqu’aux enfers... et alors le Soleil s’obscurcira et la Lune ne donnera plus de lumière : les étoiles tomberont ...
...
Alors apparaîtra le Signe du Fils de l’Homme et avec lui les Saints Anges et Il placera son siège sur les nuées et Il siégera sur le Trône de Sa Majesté avec les 12 Apôtres assis sur les 12 sièges de sa Gloire.
Et les livres seront ouverts et Il jugera tout l’univers selon la foi qu’Il a prêchée...
...
Le fils de l’homme retirera les Élus du milieu des non-croyants et Il leur dira : Venez vous qui êtes les bénis de mon Père ; possédez le royaume qui a été préparé pour vous depuis l’organisation du monde.
...

Lors de la Séparation Ultime] les âmes (spiritus) sortiront de la prison [des corps : tuniques corporelles] et aussi ma voix sera entendue et il n’y aura plus qu’un seul bercail et un seul pasteur"


...

"C’est là le "secret" (arcanum) des hérétiques de Concorrezo apporté de Bulgarie à Nazaire, leur évêque..." commente l’Inquisiteur de Carcassonne. »

 

[foolish]

I translated the last part of Namadev's post as: "During the Separation [Ultimate] souls (spiritus) come out of prison [of bodies tunics] and also my voice will be heard and there will be one fold and one shepherd " ... "This is the" secret "(arcanum) of heretics Concorrezo brought Bulgaria Nazaire, their bishop ..." says the Inquisitor of Carcassonne. "

Although this is not grammatically perfect, we can see the meaning of the "resurrection" in the eyes of the Cathar heretics, which differs from that of the orthodox church. What is important here is that they (the Cathars) thought of themselves as true Christians, and therefore would have no problem using traditional or Biblical imagery. Of course, the "interpretation" of these images would be seen differently to an "orthodox" mind.

If we are going to assume that these images should only be interpreted in a stricly orthodox manner, then all the other interpretations become invalid, or at least a stretch. But I think this is a poor assumption to make.

 

[foolish]

Getting back to Mary's question about the trionfi, Burkhardt, in his "The civilization of the Renaissance in Italy" tells us that :
"The Procession, in the broad, level, well paved streets of the Italian cities, was soon developed into the 'Trionfo' or train of masked figures on foot and in chariots... the ecclesiatical character of which gradually gave way to the secular... Besides the personification of abstract qualities [of the allegories], historical representations of them were introduced in great number - that both poetry and plastic art were accustomed to represent famous men and women... The secular 'Trionfo' wre far more frequent than the religious... We now and again read of the actual triumphal entrance of a victorious general..." Alphonso [the Great's] procession on his entrance into Naples (1443) "was a strange mixture of antique, allegorical, and purely comic elements". (pp. 246-255)

It would seem that The Emperor, in many of these processions, then, would have more of an association to some local historical person than always having to stict to its traditional representation of the Romam general.

 

[foolish]

As far as The Popess is concerned, another way to look at this is - If we are to assume that all images in the tarot should be viewed in their most basic, face-value sense of traditional orthodoxy, then why would the creators of the tarot go through the trouble of calling the card "The Popess" if they meant it to represent Faith? Wouldn't it have been easier to just use the traditional terminology like they did with the other virtues: Justice, Temperance and Strength?

 

[Namadev]

I translated the last part of Namadev's post as: "During the Separation [Ultimate] souls (spiritus) come out of prison [of bodies tunics] and also my voice will be heard and there will be one fold and one shepherd " ... "This is the" secret "(arcanum) of heretics Concorrezo brought Bulgaria Nazaire, their bishop ..." says the Inquisitor of Carcassonne. "

Thank you

The parenthesis are mine ....

I do not know if Bob had taken account of this last phrase of the Interrogatio ...

May one reject the neo-Cathari influence upon the redactors because they negated the Cross and the Pope ?
The sign of the cross was more useful to chase moskitoes and they didn't believe in the "body" presence of Chrsit in Eucharistie ...

If you would be so kind to translate the other part of the cathari Text please ?,
Maybe should we see otherwise the Judgment Card more as a Arcangel card ...

 

[Teheuti]

It would seem that The Emperor, in many of these processions, then, would have more of an association to some local historical person than always having to stict to its traditional representation of the Romam general.

It sounds to me as if you are assuming that the trumps and the processions contained exactly the same allegories - and that any general or leader in the procession had to have been called "The Emperor" since that was what he was called in the tarot trumps. I don't think it worked that way.

 

[Teheuti]

As far as The Popess is concerned, another way to look at this is - If we are to assume that all images in the tarot should be viewed in their most basic, face-value sense of traditional orthodoxy, then why would the creators of the tarot go through the trouble of calling the card "The Popess" if they meant it to represent Faith? Wouldn't it have been easier to just use the traditional terminology like they did with the other virtues: Justice, Temperance and Strength?

It's not necessarily Faith. It could have originally represented Holy Mother Church or the Papacy itself. And why picture these things as a Popess? And yet they did - as per the statue in St. Peter's in Rome.

It seems that you are trying to make things make sense according to your own belief of how they should have been rather than trying to see them for simply what they are (which requires us to accept limits on what we can know).