reconsidering a cathar connection

[foolish]

I like your humor about the Duke of Burgandy, Mary. but as far as your other point goes, it's far from "defiinitive."

O'Neill brought up this point earlier in his essay on Catharism. But let's not be too swift to dismiss the idea that Cathar concepts, ideals, or history were written down or placed in the tarot. Let's not forget that it was not necessarily the Cathar perfecti, with their strict attitudes regarding symbols and materialism, but the average follower or sympathizer who most likely provided these things for us.

Even the perfecti were known to carry copies of the New Testement and the Gospel of John, which they used in their ritual of the consolamentum. That, in and of itself, should prove that - regardless of their ideology - the Cathar still lived in the real world and used material things. They ate, drank, clothed themselves, etc. So this anti-materialistic ideal shouldn't be taken to the extreme literal sense. Peter Biller tells us that many Cathars were well educated and held positions as notaries, doctors, lawyers and mechants. ("Heresy and Literacy", p. 62).

In addition, there were many written accounts of the Cathars and their beliefs, including "The Book of Two Principles" written by an Italian Cathar in the 13th century. John of Lugio, a Cathar bishop, wrote a ten volume book about Cathar beliefs. Therefore, it is doubtful that they would have abstained from using another form of materialism like the tarot to expouse their ideas.

 

[Teheuti]

In addition, there were many written accounts of the Cathars and their beliefs, including "The Book of Two Principles" written by an Italian Cathar in the 13th century. John of Lugio, a Cathar bishop, wrote a ten volume book about Cathar beliefs. Therefore, it is doubtful that they would have abstained from using another form of materialism like the tarot to expouse their ideas.

And it's doubtful that space aliens would not have landed here and been the impetus for all of humanity's greatest achievements.

Both assumptions share about the same amount of validity without evidence to support them. They are meaningless. I could make up all kinds of similar statements and proclaim their validity. That is why rules of logic and the scientific method are applied to history—so that theories can be tested and facts verified.

Let's see the logic here:
If someone carries and/or writes a religious book, then he must also be willing use the images of a gambling game for his religious purposes. This is nonsensical. There is no doubt that they wrote and used books, but why should that fact not only invalidate their disdain for representational images but make it likely that they used them? It doesn't "prove" (as you said) anything. Do you have some inside knowledge that disproves the conclusions of a Cathar scholar like Anne Brenon?

 

[foolish]

Let's try to follow this logic a little closer: What you're saying is that, since you have found statements about the Cathars' belief system towards the use of symbols and material representations, there is no way they would ever consider using a deck of cards like the tarot. However, given the evidence I just presented about not only their use of the gospels and the New Testament, their non-objection to pursue a life of business (in fact, most merchants used symbols or emblems above their doors to identify their trade), but also the other writings we know about (all material things), this would seem to refute your conclusion.

Now, not to jump ahead in our logic - This does not mean that they DID use the tarot, but only that there is no conclusive proof (given their immersion in everyday life) why they would not - (your theory).

Don't get me wrong. I am not insinuating that I have offered "proof" of the connection between the Cathars and the tarot, I am just leaving the possibility open (which I don't believe you have conclusively taken off the table by your statements above.)

I believe that Anne Brenon may have been talking specifically about Cathar ideology and philosophy - very different from how many believers actually lived their lives on a daily basis - Also different from how some of the Cathar sympathizers, not bound to such constricting ideology, would necessarily have behaved.

And, as far as I can remember, I have not made any statements about aliens.

 

[Teheuti]

Let's try to follow this logic a little closer

The logic has nothing to do with the actual content of your statements, but rather I'm saying that nothing is proved by them, and, as constructed, they are logical fallacies. The first part of your statement "they carried and wrote religious books," says nothing about the second part—their use of images to portray religious subjects.
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/

Likewise, I can't prove that they didn't use images to convey their beliefs. At this point, there is nothing to indicate that they did. The job of the historian is to find something that supports a theory. Until then it is simply a theory and may or may not be true.

What you're saying is that, since you have found statements about the Cathars' belief system towards the use of symbols and material representations, there is no way they would ever consider using a deck of cards like the tarot.

I don't know if they would or wouldn't use a deck of cards to play a game. There is nothing, so far, that indicates to me that they would modify a deck (as the occultists did do, for instance) to include secrets about Cathar history and beliefs.

Now, not to jump ahead in our logic - This does not mean that they DID use the tarot, but only that there is no conclusive proof (given their immersion in everyday life) why they would not - (your theory).

I don't have a theory. I went looking for information on the Cathar Bible of Lyon. I found the article from which I quoted. I'm awaiting some evidence that supports a Cathar-tarot connection. I haven't seen any, yet.

When I said "pretty definitive" earlier, I meant that Anne Brenon sounds pretty definitive in her statements.

I believe that Anne Brenon may have been talking specifically about Cathar ideology and philosophy - very different from how many believers actually lived their lives on a daily basis - Also different from how some of the Cathar sympathizers, not bound to such constricting ideology, would necessarily have behaved.

Great - find some examples of how they did behave.

And, as far as I can remember, I have not made any statements about aliens.

No, I did. My point was that your statement could not be proved any more than could mine. Each statement involved the same kind of false logic to make its point and is unprovable.

 

[Teheuti]

But why don't we get back to what is valuable in all this? The tarot is a wonderful mechanism for telling a story. We get to meet the main characters and their conflicts, we can see a variety of events, we can learn about the goals and visions, we observe the obstacles and errors. It's an entertaining, almost effortless way to learn about the history of the Cathars and provides a mnemonic structure that helps us remember the details.

I have yet to see how it is part of the history of tarot, but if that is not the issue then the tarot history need no longer get in the way. If it is about the history of tarot then we need some historical connections.

 

[Namadev]

Namadev, thank you for the link to your notes. Anyone who wants a rough translation can insert the page url into one of the following translation engines:
http://translate.google.com/
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/

I was very interested in the Cathar Bible of Lyon that you mention and looked for more information. I found an article by Anne Brenon of the Center of Cathar Studies in Carcassonne called "Cathars and the Representation of the Divine: Christians of the Invisible" that talks about this Bible and their other known works. [The publisher, Brill, is a highly respected scholarly publisher and Brenon seems to be a major scholar in the field.] She claims "they were the Christian group that went the furtherest in rejecting images. . . . They also rejected all kinds of sacralizations of the visible, that is, all representations of the created world, whether animal or vegetable."

She explains that the Cathar Bible stood out from all other Bibles of the time for its non-figurative decoration (except for a rare lily or fish—their significance is explained later in the text). The author could find no other period Bible that lacked pictures of living things:
http://books.google.com/books?id=5_NEq76VrYYC&pg=PA256

She concludes a couple of pages later: "This fact [lack of figurative decoration] confirms, once more that Cathars apparently were the only medieval Christians [even as opposed to Waldensians, etc.] who refused all figurative representation of material creation."

And, "As Christians of the Invisible, Cathars seem not to have wanted any representations at all of the lower world."

This sounds pretty definitive to me!!!

Therefore, Cathars seem like the least likely to put their religious beliefs in a picture book used for gambling, and they also don't seem like the kind of people who would create a picture book that portrays a story of the horrors done to them and depicts the evil people who carried it out. Their focus was on another whole realm of experience.

Correct.
That's why I explained that the Cathari were iconoclastes .

So we can only speak of neo-catharism or better heretic neo-syncretism .

"Le Syncrétisme spirituel du XIVe siècle

Un mélange des différents courants hérétiques dans un syncrétisme original eut lieu au XIVe siècle. Le catharisme originel absolutiste des dualistes ne s’amalgamera pas aux courants dissidents liés à Joachim de Flore.
En effet, les Parfaits sont iconoclastres et non iconolâtres : ils répugnent à l’usage des images dans un but spirituel.
Mais les croyants cathares, eux, n’eurent pas le même "purisme".
Ce sont ces mileux des croyants cathares qui purent influencer les rédacteurs des Trionfi.
En effet, il y eut un la fin du XIVe siècle et au commencement du XVe siècle de singulières miscellanées idéologiques issues des différentes convictions hérétiques.
« À la fin du XIVe siècle, à Chieri (...), Giacomo Bech déposait, devant l’Inquisition, avoir été successivement apostolique, cathare au point d’aller chercher un enseignement en Bosnie, puis vaudois. »
- - Anne Brenon, Le vrai visage du catharisme
« Le catharisme (du XIVe siècle) participa sans aucun doute au dernier brassage qui mêla vieilles et jeunes pulsions religieuses dissidentes de la fin du Moyen Âge, en un front commun de défense devant l’Inquisition, et en un syncrétisme populaire indéniable, particulièrement en Italie du Nord. »
- - Anne Brenon, Le vrai visage du catharisme"


Référence :http://www.officieldelavoyance.org/spip.php?article608

 

[Namadev]

Summary

I believe that Anne Brenon may have been talking specifically about Cathar ideology and philosophy - very different from how many believers actually lived their lives on a daily basis - Also different from how some of the Cathar sympathizers, not bound to such constricting ideology, would necessarily have behaved.

Rappel :

1)Oui, comme je l'ai défini d'entrée de jeu, les Parfaits jamais n'ont recours aux images : ils sont iconoclastes.
2)D'autre part, il n'y a aucune évidence d'un lien quelconque entre le courant cathare et les Tarots.

Nous raisonnons donc purement et simplement sur une hypothèse dont nous tentons d'augmenter le degré de vraisemblance.

a)il ne peut s'agir, à l'évidence, que de croyants cathares ou mieux encore ou sympathisants cathares ou encore plus vraisemblable des hérétiques neo-cathares appartenant au syncrétisme spirituel spécifique du XIV e.
L'art devint effectivement un vehicule de transmission de l'hérésie sous une forme artistique non doctrinale : il faut aussi se souvenir que ce sont les Troubadours occitans qui vont transmettre beaucoup de l'Eglise cathare...
b)les recherches de Newmann transmise par Mary Greer sont l'occasion d'un ré -examen de la connection Papesse = Manfreda - avec en sus la découverte d'une proximité (Cathares/Humiliati) sur Concorezzo
c)A propos de Concorezzzo, l'objection d'ordre doctrinale comme quoi les Cathares n'admettraient pas de Jugement dernier est à confronter avec l'Interrogatio Johannis où apparaissent bien, après la trinité Etoiles, Lune Soleil, l'Ange du Jugement avec la Justice céleste et le Christ de la fin du Temps :
« Et Jean interrogea le Seigneur sur le jour du Jugement :
...

Le jugement
Et le Seigneur ordonnera à son ange de sonner de la trompette. La voix de l’Archange dans la trompette sera entendue depuis le ciel jusqu’aux enfers... et alors le Soleil s’obscurcira et la Lune ne donnera plus de lumière : les étoiles tomberont ...
...
Alors apparaîtra le Signe du Fils de l’Homme et avec lui les Saints Anges et Il placera son siège sur les nuées et Il siégera sur le Trône de Sa Majesté avec les 12 Apôtres assis sur les 12 sièges de sa Gloire.
Et les livres seront ouverts et Il jugera tout l’univers selon la foi qu’Il a prêchée...
...
Le fils de l’homme retirera les Élus du milieu des non-croyants et Il leur dira : Venez vous qui êtes les bénis de mon Père ; possédez le royaume qui a été préparé pour vous depuis l’organisation du monde.
...

[Lors de la Séparation Ultime] les âmes (spiritus) sortiront de la prison [des corps : tuniques corporelles] et aussi ma voix sera entendue et il n’y aura plus qu’un seul bercail et un seul pasteur."
"C’est là le "secret" (arcanum) des hérétiques de Concorrezo apporté de Bulgarie à Nazaire, leur évêque..." commente l’Inquisiteur de Carcassonne. »


Voilà les éléments de réflexion que j'apporte, aujourd'hui, au dossier.

 

[Namadev]

1) Yes, like I l' defined d' outset, Perfect never the n' have recourse to the images: they are iconoclasts.
2) D' another share, it n' there no obviousness d' has; an unspecified bond between the current cathare and the Tarots. We thus reason purely and simply on an assumption of which we try d' to increase the degree of probability.
A) it A cannot s' to act, with l' obviousness, that believers cathares or better still or sympathizers cathares or more probable of the heretics neo-cathares pertaining to the specific spiritual syncretism of the XIV E. L' art became indeed a vehicle of transmission of l' heresy in a nondoctrinal artistic form: it as should be remembered as they are the Troubadours occitans who will transmit much l' Church cathare…
B) the searchs for Newmann transmitted by Mary Greer are l' occasion d' D - examination of Papesse connection = Manfreda - with in addition the discovery d' a proximity (Cathares/Humiliati) on Concorezzo
C) In connection with Concorezzzo, l' objection d' order doctrinal like what Cathares n' would not admit a last Judgement is to be confronted with l' Interrogatio Johannis where appear well, after the trinity Stars, the Moon Sun, l' Angel of the Judgement with celestial Justice and the Christ of the end of Time:
“And Jean questioned the Lord over the day of the Judgement: … The judgement And the Lord will order with his angel to sound trumpet. The voice of the Archangel in the trumpet will be heard since the sky until the hells… and then the Sun will be darkened and the Moon will not give any more a light: the stars will fall… … Then the Sign of the Son of man will appear and with him the Saints Angels and It will place his seat on the clouds and It will sit on the Throne of Its Majesty with the 12 Apostles sitting out of the 12 seats of its Glory. And the books will be opened and He will judge all the universe according to the faith which He preached… … The son of man will withdraw the Elected officials of the medium of the unbelievers and He will say to them: Come which are blessed of my Father; have the kingdom which was prepared for you since the organization of the world. … [During Ultimate Separation] the hearts (spiritus) will leave the prison [of the bodies: body tunics] and also my voice will be heard and there will be nothing any more but one fold and one pasteur." " It is the " there; secret" (arcanum) of the heretics of Concorrezo brought from Bulgaria to Nazaire, their bishop… " comment on Inquisiteur of Carcassonne. ”

 

[Moonbow]

Thanks Alain

Online translators do the best they can I guess.

If anyone sees errors or can make them clearer for us by summarising please can you step in and help out.

We would be very appreciative.

Moonbow*

 

[Ross G Caldwell]

Translation of Alain's latest comments:

--------------------------
To sum up –

1) Yes, as I clearly stated coming into this argument, the Perfects never used images: they were iconoclasts.
2) Moreover, there is not the slightest evidence of any link between the Cathar current and Tarot.

We are arguing purely and simply, therefore, about a hypothesis whose degree of plausibility we are trying to increase.

a) from the evidence, it can only be the Cathar “believers” or better yet Cathar sympathizers or even more probably neo-Cathar heretics forming part of the specific spiritual syncretism of the 14th century.
Art in effect became a vehicle for the transmission of the heresy under an artistic form rather than a doctrinal one: it should also be remembered that it was the Occitan Troubadours who transmitted much knowledge of the Cathar church…

b) the research of Newman presented by Mary Greer are the opportunity for a reexaminated of the connection Papesse=Manfreda – with, additionally, the discovery of a close relationship (Cathars/Humiliati) with Concorezzo.

c) Concerning Concorezzo, the objection that the dogma of the Cathars would not admit the Last Judgment is to be confronted with the Interrogatio Johannis, where there clearly appear, after the trinity of the Stars, Moon and Sun, the Angel of Judgment with celestial Justice and Christ at the End of Time:

“And John asked the Lord about the Day of Judgment:

The Judgment
And the Lord will order his angel to sound the trumpet. The voice of the Archangel will be heard in the trumpet from heaven down to hell… and then the Sun will be obscured and the Moon will give no more light: the stars will fall…

Then the Sign of the Son of Man will appear and with him the Holy Angels, and He will set his throne on the clouds and He will seat himself on the Throne of His Majesty, with the 12 Apostles seated on the 12 thrones of his Glory.
And the books will be opened and He will judge the entire universe according to the faith that He has preached…

The son of man will take the Elect from the middle of the unbelievers and He will say to them: Come you who are the blessed of my Father; possess the kingdom which has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

[During the Final Separation] the souls (spiritus) will go out of the prison [of the body: bodily garment] and my voice will be heard and there will only be one flock and one shepherd.”
“This is the ‘secret’ (Arcanum) of the heretics of Concorezzo brought from Bulgaria by Nazarius, their bishop,…” comments the Inquisitor of Carcassone.

These are the basic reflections which I am bringing, today, to the case.
---------------------------

Any opinions expressed are those of the original author and do not necessarily represent those of the translator.