KariRoad
Do you mean something like this...Teheuti said:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~pardos/Resources/Hand.JPG
Rider Waite's Queen of Pentacles headress
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~pardos/Resources/Hand.JPG
Richard
Are you saying that RWS portrays knights as 10º Cardinal and 20º Fixed, same as Kings? Or do you mean that Knights should be like Kings, instead of 10º Fixed and 20º Mutable? Pardon me if this is stupid question.KariRoad said:
KariRoad
A.E. Waite 1910LRichard said:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/pkt0307.htm
"A Knight should be chosen as the Significator if the subject of inquiry is a man of forty years old and upward; a King should be chosen for any male who is under that age."
Waite here clearly designates Knights as older than Kings.
Why?
To his way of thinking, Knights are (have to be) Kings.
Knights ride on horses (active) whilst Kings sit on thrones (passive).
So too, all "goldeny dawny" we must follow YHVH as being
Y fire
H water
V air
H earth
the Knights must be fire and air to be Active elements
because water and earth are Passive elements.
It works out OK for Wands and Swords, but Cups and Coins present a serious problem.
Solution: shift the zodiacal attributions to overlap so that all Knights (Kings) are active.
10º Cardinal and 20º Fixed. If that isn't stooping below grovelling, you tell me.
Richard
Thanks, KR, I get your drift. However, I still think that Waite intended for his deck to be taken as extoric by the uninitiated (except for a few maverick Freemasons and such), and esoteric by the GD. Even though Regardie has apparently exposed the the GD as it existed at that time, most Tarot readers probably take the deck as exoteric. (Witness all the clone decks which have no GD symbolism, except maybe unknowingly, and all the roadside fortune tellers who probably have never heard of the GD. This is not a slam of roadside fortune tellers. I had an amazing session with one when I was a teenager, and even in my (ummm) mature years her accuracy continues to amaze me.)
Anyhow, it seems that the GD really tried to be be a secret society, and Waite respected this. All secret secieties may be a farce, including Masons, but maybe they have made a positive contribution to our culture. Who knows? Conjecturing about it is great fun!
Anyhow, it seems that the GD really tried to be be a secret society, and Waite respected this. All secret secieties may be a farce, including Masons, but maybe they have made a positive contribution to our culture. Who knows? Conjecturing about it is great fun!
KariRoad
Art is both sacred and profane, and Pamela Colman Smith was an Artist. Farce? Everyone here with an "artist" friend raise your hand if farce ever comes to mind?!? ~ It's brilliant!LRichard said:
"Who knows" is perhaps the most profound question we may ask.
FUN
My hope and desire. It's why I love Tarot! ~and tweak all things Golden Dawn. So serious!The Queen of Pentacles (by Pamela Colman Smith) wears a Crown. Howabout: imagine it from all sides? We see 3 sets of designs and 2 half-sets. So, all in all, there must me 8 of those design things. What do they mean?
Debra
Pamela Colman Smith is pretty darn good at depicting exactly what something is supposed to be with only a few lines, dots and blotches. So why doesn't the Queen's headdress actually look like a goat's head with wings?
Abrac
Hi Debra, I was looking at KariRoad's pictures back in post #8 and there's one that shows how the crown looks upside down. In that view it really looks like a goat's head to me.
Abrac
Here's a color picture of it. It looks to me like it's there, only concealed, like the M on the Ace of Cups.
Upside Down Crown
Upside Down Crown
Debra
Abrac, hi, thanks!
Ok, I see...something. Could be a cat--looks even more like a Western hemisphere oppossum http://www.nps.gov/prsf/naturescience/virginia-opossum.htm If it's an upside down goat, it's surely hidden. That M is rather easier to see isn't it?
What I mean is, I find myself hemming and hawing and grunting at the screen when I try to see that blob, in any orientation, as a goat specifically. Especially since there is already a perfectly clear goat's head on the card.
I wonder sometimes if Colman Smith hasn't done just what she wanted and Waite be damned. I have no evidence--wishful thinking.
Ok, I see...something. Could be a cat--looks even more like a Western hemisphere oppossum http://www.nps.gov/prsf/naturescience/virginia-opossum.htm
If it's an upside down goat, it's surely hidden. That M is rather easier to see isn't it?What I mean is, I find myself hemming and hawing and grunting at the screen when I try to see that blob, in any orientation, as a goat specifically. Especially since there is already a perfectly clear goat's head on the card.
I wonder sometimes if Colman Smith hasn't done just what she wanted and Waite be damned. I have no evidence--wishful thinking.
Teheuti
The GD Knights are the fiery part of whatever suit they are in.KariRoad said:
Knight/King of Wands is 20° Scorpio to 20° Sagittarius. Fiery part of Fire.
Knight/King of Cups is 20° Aquarius to 20° Pisces. Fiery part of Water.
Knight/King of Swords is 20° Taurus to 20° Gemini. Fiery part of Air.
Knight/King of Pentacles is 20° Leo to 20° Virgo. Fiery part of Earth.
Read Understanding the Tarot Court where the GD-Thoth-Waite situation is explained in depth. My explanation there has been acknowledged by several GD scholars.
However, you don't need to use Golden Dawn attributes when using the RWS deck. That's one of the strengths of this deck. You can use it as a GD deck or not - as you choose.
Did you all even look at the Westcott picture - especially the goat head on the right knee (right from our perspective)?
http://marygreer.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/westcott-qp060.jpg
BTW, Pamela Colman Smith was trained as an illustrator—a craftsman—and that was her profession. She was specifically trained to illustrate other people's works and ideas. The training and focus is different than for a fine artist (especially back then)—not to say that someone couldn't be both, but she herself says that this was a "job" that she was hired to do for someone else.
I think that rather than be given the Westcott court cards, she probably was give the Westcott notes that are found on the backs of his drawings, along with a few additional notes by Waite. Things like the rabbit in this card were probably her own.
