Alta
Thank you Sunburst!
Saturn Return
wizzle
I think dadsnook and I traded 2nd Saturn return stories on one of the threads and it's not at all like the first go round. Most of the book meanings concentrate on the first return in which we build up structures and/or limits for good or ill. My first return brought my my son, which is certainly limiting in terms of being a parent but wonderful in the long run. He and I thus have conjunct saturns so as I'm entering my 2nd one he's doing the first one. Putting it another way, in your first return you tend to plant yourself firmly into the Earth/life and are concerned with permanence.
This 2nd return doesn't seem to be so much about building up a structure as a very honest appraisal of what needs to be kept and what needs to go. Our approach is for my son to take over my beautiful house and for me to move to Europe for a year or two. How's that for living out the symbolism?
This 2nd return doesn't seem to be so much about building up a structure as a very honest appraisal of what needs to be kept and what needs to go. Our approach is for my son to take over my beautiful house and for me to move to Europe for a year or two. How's that for living out the symbolism?
Sunburst
Now that sounds like a plan! I agree, for most people, the second Saturn return is much easier, because most people have matured and are more self-aware by this time. If someone is still on the wrong path, however, the Saturn return will make sure he or she is booted over to the right path. For example, if you're in a bad marriage, you may get divorced so that you can move forward again. But if your marriage is good and solid, then you'll make other changes... downsize the house, take early retirement, or something like that.
Making a move to Europe, as you are doing sounds like a pretty positive way to deal with a Saturn return. Hope you have the time of your life!
Sunburst
Making a move to Europe, as you are doing sounds like a pretty positive way to deal with a Saturn return. Hope you have the time of your life!
Sunburst
Enchanted
Well this is all most interesting...could explain a lot.
Sorry to take it back to tarot cards again for a moment but it could explain why the King of Cups "haunted" me as well...if you make the link to "him" being representative of Saturn in Cancer.
My Saturn is in Cancer and as I understand it this isn't a particularily easy placement but it is also in the 10th House. I have read to interprete this as a need for a stable home and to find a way to express my emotions as I may have trouble with this. But being a the 10th house career is also affected and I may have a longer path to success but I will eventually get there. I realise this is very rudimentary and I haven't quite found a way to put it all together properly and make a coherent sentence or even probably interpret correctly.
The connection I am finding here is that these two things...career and home are areas of my life that are unstable, changed since Saturn return but unstable and the quest for stability or permanence expends a lot of my energy.
I don't know if any one could help me to understand my placement further but there is something key in here...that I am missing. I am sure of it.
Sorry to take it back to tarot cards again for a moment but it could explain why the King of Cups "haunted" me as well...if you make the link to "him" being representative of Saturn in Cancer.
My Saturn is in Cancer and as I understand it this isn't a particularily easy placement but it is also in the 10th House. I have read to interprete this as a need for a stable home and to find a way to express my emotions as I may have trouble with this. But being a the 10th house career is also affected and I may have a longer path to success but I will eventually get there. I realise this is very rudimentary and I haven't quite found a way to put it all together properly and make a coherent sentence or even probably interpret correctly.
The connection I am finding here is that these two things...career and home are areas of my life that are unstable, changed since Saturn return but unstable and the quest for stability or permanence expends a lot of my energy.
I don't know if any one could help me to understand my placement further but there is something key in here...that I am missing. I am sure of it.
einhverfr
As an interesting extension here, do other people do Saturn Return charts too (I have found them helpful). I often try to draw either one or three charts (depending on how many times Saturn crosses the natal Saturn). In my experience, it is the last one which is most important. If it is preceeded by 2 other ones, these often represent crises which condition the last chart.
Just some thoughts.
Just some thoughts.
Alta
Ah, being a baby in astrolgy I hadn't thought about the house placement. My birth Saturn was retrograde in my first house. Saturn was at 29 Leo and the Asc was at 24 Leo.
So that is around how I see myself, and how the world sees me, right? Certainly when you retire the world sees you a lot differently! and I retired in June this year. Starting to see myself differently too now that I am not so wound up in the job.
Interesting comments
So that is around how I see myself, and how the world sees me, right? Certainly when you retire the world sees you a lot differently! and I retired in June this year. Starting to see myself differently too now that I am not so wound up in the job.
Interesting comments
dadsnook2000
What type of chart? A reply also to Marion
For Saturn Returns, there are several issues to consider.
1) To cast an actual "return" chart requires that Saturn has a rate of motion that permits you to proportionalize its movement relative to a time of day so that you can get an ascendant. This is not possible or sufficient much of the time.
2) As Rob Hand, and myself (who uses Sidereal methods a lot), notes, using precession correction tends to make a return chart more accurate and meaningful. From 25 years of experience with precession-correction, I can say this is definitely a good thing to do.
3) Some astrologers will "time" their Saturn Return chart to coincide with a conjunction or strong aspect to another planet -- the Sun or a planet that has a natal aspect to Saturn. This provides a "time" and an ascendant to use.
4) I tend to watch the outer planets move through PHASES relative to their natal position and my natal ascendant. I don't normally do "return" charts for Jupiter, Saturn, etc. I do often do return charts for Sun, Moon, Venus and Mars -- all precession corrected.
FOR MARION: Yes, it does require a shift in perspective for people who make the move intro retirement, especially if you have been working for a living at a job. Your first experience is that of "what am I going to do with all of this extra time." The second phase experience is "I don't have enough time to do what I want to do." The third phase is realizing that in some areas of life that others don't grant you any "relevance."
Relevance within this world is consistent within the family and friends, but you can feel cut-off from the world of contributors. Of course this is truly a superficial feeling but it can be a bit persistent. My biggest problem was in convincing the wife that she had no business volunteering me to help all of her friends -- that I had my own agenda, that my time was full. Right now I am bringing a two year project to conclusion -- or should I say to its starting point -- as I'm about to launch my Internet business. I'll be announcing it here first on AT soon -- no, no tarot readings, although it is tarot-related.
For you, and a second Saturn Return, I'd see how the planets had changed houses (natal) on the date of your return. This can give you some interesting thoughts to consider as to how you might best redirect your energies and interests. A fun exercise. Dave
For Saturn Returns, there are several issues to consider.
1) To cast an actual "return" chart requires that Saturn has a rate of motion that permits you to proportionalize its movement relative to a time of day so that you can get an ascendant. This is not possible or sufficient much of the time.
2) As Rob Hand, and myself (who uses Sidereal methods a lot), notes, using precession correction tends to make a return chart more accurate and meaningful. From 25 years of experience with precession-correction, I can say this is definitely a good thing to do.
3) Some astrologers will "time" their Saturn Return chart to coincide with a conjunction or strong aspect to another planet -- the Sun or a planet that has a natal aspect to Saturn. This provides a "time" and an ascendant to use.
4) I tend to watch the outer planets move through PHASES relative to their natal position and my natal ascendant. I don't normally do "return" charts for Jupiter, Saturn, etc. I do often do return charts for Sun, Moon, Venus and Mars -- all precession corrected.
FOR MARION: Yes, it does require a shift in perspective for people who make the move intro retirement, especially if you have been working for a living at a job. Your first experience is that of "what am I going to do with all of this extra time." The second phase experience is "I don't have enough time to do what I want to do." The third phase is realizing that in some areas of life that others don't grant you any "relevance."
Relevance within this world is consistent within the family and friends, but you can feel cut-off from the world of contributors. Of course this is truly a superficial feeling but it can be a bit persistent. My biggest problem was in convincing the wife that she had no business volunteering me to help all of her friends -- that I had my own agenda, that my time was full. Right now I am bringing a two year project to conclusion -- or should I say to its starting point -- as I'm about to launch my Internet business. I'll be announcing it here first on AT soon -- no, no tarot readings, although it is tarot-related.
For you, and a second Saturn Return, I'd see how the planets had changed houses (natal) on the date of your return. This can give you some interesting thoughts to consider as to how you might best redirect your energies and interests. A fun exercise. Dave
Alta
Okay, I think I see. It is not as simple as running my dorky little horoscope program and seeing when Saturn returns to its position in my natal chart. It would be a lot more relevant if I paid to get a proper Saturn Return chart, worked out as you suggest above. Good, that clarifies the idea for me nicely.dadsnook2000 said:
Your comment about fine tuning the Return with a major aspect makes good sense to me, as (I assume from your comments) that would be when the effects of the Return would be most felt.
I note that you feel that Return charts for the inner planets may be more meaningful, at least that is what I draw from your comment that you may more often do those.
True enough. I have started down these states of mind, and they can be quite powerful and sobering. Even though 57 is not old, still there is the reminder that you are in the last part of life and it needs to be handled differently.
The three phases that you mention do not seem to happen exactly sequentially, but keep bobbing up in different areas.
I agree strongly that one initial effect of retiring is the sudden feeling of being irrelevant to the world, as 'useless eater' as I have been known to wryly note. I am gradually rebuilding but it takes time and thought.
Glad to hear that you are re-making your life. It always encouraging to hear that sort of result.
Okay, so I will take a look at where the other planets are and see what the total picture is.
Thank you for the detailed thoughtful reply. Much appreciated.
