Similarities Magician, Empress???

[starrystarrynight]

@ janessa: I don't keep lists of resources anymore (probably did 40 or so years ago when I first started looking at card meanings,) so, I can't give you a bunch of them off the cuff. But off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure Anthony Louis, in his book Tarot Plain and Simple attributes those archetypes to the Magician and High Priestess. His is probably the most recent tarot book I have read, but that was quite awhile ago now--probably fifteen years or more ago. And the idea wasn't new to me at that time--i.e. I'd seen it before.

More importantly, they have borne out in my experience(s) in readings over the years. But again, not all the time...I can simply offer what has crossed my path in learning forums such as this one.

 

[Thirteen]

Many "sons" in the deck

Altho i'm aware that the Empress is viewed as a mother archetype, the Emperor as a father archetype, and the Sun @ times can be viewed as a child, I have NEVER come across the Magician as a son archetype.

Backing up Starry, I've come across Magician/HPS as brother/sister archetypes (though I can't remember where), as they're yin/yang like the Empress/Emperor. Magician in sunlight, HPS as the Moon, he outside, she inside, he social, she solitary, etc. And I believe that the Magician as a brother archetype is more pronounced than that of a son archetype.

So, in support of what you way, the Magician is a son archetype rather like the prince in the court cards as Crowley has them: King, Queen, Prince, Princess. The relationship between them as Father-Mother-Son-Daughter (husband/wife and brother/sister) only comes into play when they are in relation to each other. Which is to say, I don't think Starry would have made a point of the Magician as son archetype if the Empress had not been there.

Which raises another point: standing for the man in a relationship spread, there are many cards that could indicate him as being "mothered" by the Empress. If we'd had any of the Knights, for example, or the Pages or the Fool, the message Starry is seeing might be the same (though how he's being treated as a "son" might differ). These cards also are indicative of men who can feel "son-like" in relation to the Empress even if they aren't the "son" archetype in the way that the Emperor is a "Father" archetype.

 

[jenessa]

I don't keep lists of resources anymore (probably did 40 or so years ago when I first started looking at card meanings,) so, I can't give you a bunch of them off the cuff. But off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure Anthony Louis, in his book Tarot Plain and Simple attributes those archetypes to the Magician and High Priestess. His is probably the most recent tarot book I have read, but that was quite awhile ago now--probably fifteen years or more ago. And the idea wasn't new to me at that time--i.e. I'd seen it before.

More importantly, they have borne out in my experience(s) in readings over the years. But again, not all the time...I can simply offer what has crossed my path in learning forums such as this one.

Like you I don't keep lists of resources, tho i've recently started keeping track of sources re: the info. i've gleaned from what AT members post. So you've been studying tarot for upwards of 40 yrs. .. wow! .. & many thanks for pointing out that these concepts have played out in your experience.

Backing up Starry, I've come across Magician/HPS as brother/sister archetypes (though I can't remember where), as they're yin/yang like the Empress/Emperor. Magician in sunlight, HPS as the Moon, he outside, she inside, he social, she solitary, etc.

The concept off yin/yang explains how these types of associations ie. archetypes were arrived at.

And I believe that the Magician as a brother archetype is more pronounced than that of a son archetype.

Yes this was my "feeling" too, in the sense that when i first began pondering this I felt that brother/sister seemed plausible, tho son/daughter seemed to me a bit of a stretch,, tho of course it would depend on context.

Thank you both for enlightening me/REGARDS/jenessa

 

[Richard]

Magician and Priestess are Osiris and Isis as brother and sister. Emperor and Empress are Osiris and Isis as husband and wife. (These are metaphorical relationships, of course; and Isis and Osiris are archetypes.)

 

[jenessa]

Magician and Priestess are Osiris and Isis as brother and sister. Emperor and Empress are Osiris and Isis as husband and wife. (These are metaphorical relationships, of course; and Isis and Osiris are archetypes.)

Many thanks for this historical reference .. isn't mythology fascinating!

 

[Richard]

Many thanks for this historical reference .. isn't mythology fascinating!

It is indeed fascinating! Mythology can enrich Tarot in the same way that it can enrich our lives (as is shown in the writings of Joseph Campbell).

 

[starrystarrynight]

... (These are metaphorical relationships, of course; and Isis and Osiris are archetypes.)

Yes, of course. My oft-rushed responses, notwithstanding!