Tarot for Writers Certification

[Nevada]

I've read through the posts on this board, and against my better judgment, I'll just wade in with my side of the story.

Corrine, I admire your fortitude.

I designed this certification program after several members of my Tarot for Writers Meetup group asked me to.

That answers questions I had but didn't ask. Thank you.

Q: What are her qualifications?

A: I've been a professional writer since 1982. Before I got into tarot, I was a newspaper reporter and editor. I've also worked as a magazine and book editor. I've written nine books, and I'm working on four more. I know how to write -- and more importantly, I know what it's like to be a writer. In addition to my certification as a tarot master, Nevada asked about my accredited qualifications. Here's that answer: I have a bachelor's degree in philosophy, which dovetails with the principles of tarot, but also afforded me some formal training in logic and analysis.

Q: Is certification guaranteed, if you pay, regardless of the quality of your work or whether your writing improves in some way from doing the course?

A: Yes, certification is guaranteed IF you do the work -- which means, if you write about every card in the deck. Trust me, it's easier said than done.

Let me tell you about the first "tarot work" I ever did. When U.S. Games bought my self-published "Edible Tarot" to turn into the "Epicurean Tarot," they wanted me to come up with a little white booklet to accompany the deck. It wasn't too hard for me to write a few paragraphs about all of the Major Arcana cards -- or, at least, the Major Arcana cards that I liked. But as I started working my way through all the Minors, I grew increasingly tired and frustrated.

At one point, I sat down on the floor with all my cards and notes spread out around me, and just about started to cry. The job seemed overwhelming. Impossible. I would have quit, if someone wasn't waiting for me to finish ... and by the time I really did finish it, I knew that I could keep going, and write more, and more, and more.

That's the experience and encouragement I can offer other writers through the Tarot for Writers certification program, and that's why I'm putting myself out there.

Q: If so, how can her course help one become a better writer?

A: The very act of writing makes one a better writer.

Q: One could do all that writing practice on one's own and not pay anyone.

A: Yes. One could. Too many people, however, don't have the incentive or the discipline to follow through on their writing dreams. My certification program offers them one route to developing -- and finishing -- a writing project based on tarot. It's an option that some people appreciate and want to pursue.

Nevada also remarked that a "workshop -- on or offline -- that provides some meat, some real instruction and critique in writing about Tarot, would not be a bad bargain at those prices."

Personally, I think instruction and critique would be a tremendous bargain at those prices! I actually charge a lot more for both services -- but I think the prices I set for certification are fair. It probably works out to about $1 a minute for the time I'll spend reviewing people's submissions -- which is the minimum most tarot readers charge for a reading, by the way.

More importantly, someone who invests $25 in basic certification will have a definite investment in actually sitting down to write a paragraph about every card. Someone who invests $50 to develop poetry or full-length pages of text will have even more investment in the process. I explain that on the Tarot for Writers website.

Thank you for answering my questions. I appreciate that. I agree with a lot of what you say.

Yes, the practice and the study of Tarot involved are helpful in and of themselves, and the requirements you've set forth are no easy task. And yes, instruction and critique or editing at that price would be an incredible bargain. I'm still not sold on the program's value, beyond that which can be done on one's own without paying money to do it. But as you indicated, it's not for everyone. I'm sure a lot of people would think some of my purchases for my personal satisfaction don't make sense either.

I would still ask, what's the certificate for? Personal satisfaction? That's fine, if that's what the person is looking for and is willing to pay money on top of their hard work for it.

But my biggest concern, when I asked my earlier questions, was that people might get the impression this will provide any level of professional writing qualifications. You might want to make clearer on your website that this isn't intended to be a formal writing program so much as a personal Tarot study journey and writing practice. If you said something to that effect there, and I missed it, my bad, and I apologize. I'm hypersensitive to the ways in which aspiring writers can get sucked into spending more money than they can afford or will ever earn as writers. As you point out so well in your mention of your own experience, it's difficult enough to make money as a writer.

ETA: Now I see that Scion put this much better than I could. For those of us writers that aren't anywhere near "success" but have nonetheless ground out plenty of writing in our day and worked for years (evenings, weekends, vacations) to learn, improve, take critiques and rejections like grownups, and continually push ourselves to be more professional, his words are spot on.

I'd also like to add that a while back I was actually making money off some targeted ads on my website, but I removed them because they kept coming up with links to vanity publishers and fly-by-night writing schools. I couldn't stomach them. I'm not even conventionally published, only self-published, so I can't claim any success or greatness as a writer, but I have my principles. I have to speak out when I see something I think is wrong.

 

[Sheri]

AND...how is this going to fit into the current certifications offered by bodies such as ATA, TABI, Canadian Tarot Association, etc.? Or is it an auxilliary certification (like getting an MBA, but with a concentration in a certain area)?

Thoughts?

T.

T.

The ATA does not offer certification, but is neither for nor against it. It may have in the past but the focus of the ATA now is education, offered through mentoring programs and the Free Reading Networks.

Just wanted to set the record straight...

Some meta-discussion removed.

Sheri

 

[Alpha-Omega]

I understand your side as I had a very similar idea for certificate that I had up on my organization. World Tarot Readers. I had a section where poems would be wiremen up (creative aspect) and regular knowledge testing (Traditional). However I do not have the option open to the public anymore.

This is not really a certificate you just buy, you have to work, you have to write about all the cards, then you get a certificate. Granted maybe some review could be made on each work so that there is some level of standers but I like the idea over all.

I've read through the posts on this board, and against my better judgment, I'll just wade in with my side of the story.

I designed this certification program after several members of my Tarot for Writers Meetup group asked me to. I didn't design it as some sort of creepy money-making scheme. I didn't design it to become some sort of profit mill. I didn't design it to capitalize on other tarot readers, or because I think I'm smarter than everyone else -- and frankly, I'm offended by those suggestions.

You know, if I wanted to come up with a clever way to make a living, it wouldn't be through tarot. Here's the actual truth: I make about $1 for every copy of "Tarot for Writers" that gets sold, and anywhere from $10 to $20 on weekends when I hold my Saturday-morning Tarot for Writers workshops. In point of fact, I don't make a living through tarot -- but I do earn a comfortable living through the software business that my husband and I own together. Tarot is my hobby, my passion, and my avocation, but in my professional life I write technical manuals and software marketing materials, and my day job subsidizes all of my tarot work. I wish we could just put the idea that I'm some sort of money-grubbing racketeer to bed. It's untrue, and it's insulting.

Nevada asked a number of questions, and I'll answer them:

Q: What are her qualifications?

A: I've been a professional writer since 1982. Before I got into tarot, I was a newspaper reporter and editor. I've also worked as a magazine and book editor. I've written nine books, and I'm working on four more. I know how to write -- and more importantly, I know what it's like to be a writer. In addition to my certification as a tarot master, Nevada asked about my accredited qualifications. Here's that answer: I have a bachelor's degree in philosophy, which dovetails with the principles of tarot, but also afforded me some formal training in logic and analysis.

Q: Is certification guaranteed, if you pay, regardless of the quality of your work or whether your writing improves in some way from doing the course?

A: Yes, certification is guaranteed IF you do the work -- which means, if you write about every card in the deck. Trust me, it's easier said than done.

Let me tell you about the first "tarot work" I ever did. When U.S. Games bought my self-published "Edible Tarot" to turn into the "Epicurean Tarot," they wanted me to come up with a little white booklet to accompany the deck. It wasn't too hard for me to write a few paragraphs about all of the Major Arcana cards -- or, at least, the Major Arcana cards that I liked. But as I started working my way through all the Minors, I grew increasingly tired and frustrated.

At one point, I sat down on the floor with all my cards and notes spread out around me, and just about started to cry. The job seemed overwhelming. Impossible. I would have quit, if someone wasn't waiting for me to finish ... and by the time I really did finish it, I knew that I could keep going, and write more, and more, and more.

That's the experience and encouragement I can offer other writers through the Tarot for Writers certification program, and that's why I'm putting myself out there.

Q: If so, how can her course help one become a better writer?

A: The very act of writing makes one a better writer.

Q: One could do all that writing practice on one's own and not pay anyone.

A: Yes. One could. Too many people, however, don't have the incentive or the discipline to follow through on their writing dreams. My certification program offers them one route to developing -- and finishing -- a writing project based on tarot. It's an option that some people appreciate and want to pursue.

Nevada also remarked that a "workshop -- on or offline -- that provides some meat, some real instruction and critique in writing about Tarot, would not be a bad bargain at those prices."

Personally, I think instruction and critique would be a tremendous bargain at those prices! I actually charge a lot more for both services -- but I think the prices I set for certification are fair. It probably works out to about $1 a minute for the time I'll spend reviewing people's submissions -- which is the minimum most tarot readers charge for a reading, by the way.

More importantly, someone who invests $25 in basic certification will have a definite investment in actually sitting down to write a paragraph about every card. Someone who invests $50 to develop poetry or full-length pages of text will have even more investment in the process. I explain that on the Tarot for Writers website.

Grizabella griped about the intellectual property notice I included on the program page. Let me explain how that came about: every now and then, someone from the Tarot for Writers group will send me a story or a poem they've written based on the cards. Some want me to share them with other writers. Some want me to keep them private. I wanted to make it possible for people to promote their work, if that's their goal, or to keep it confidential. It's just that simple.

Grizabella, however, has decided to spin it into something smarmy. "What I kind of object to, though, and what I suspected from the start, is that she's probably using this as a means to do some research/build another book or books with the help of those who read and aspire to write, but instead of asking you to donate to the project for free, she wants to make some money from the effort without actually coming right out and saying she's wanting you to pay for the privilege."

I hate to burst Grizabella's conspiracy-theory bubble, but that's not true. It's merely a figment of Grizabella's fevered imagination.

You know, the only people in this forum who've come close to understanding this program are Alpha-Omega and Myrrha.

Alpha-Omega wrote, "I like this style. It is a creative approach to certification. There are no tests of "standardized rules" its open to you and what you want to write and feel about the cards."

That's exactly right! It's not my job to tell other writers what to write, or how to write it. I respect people more than that.

Myrrha wrote, "It seems like the value is in motivation to do the studying and writing rather than in impressing anyone with your certification. Writing a poem (or short essay) on each of 78 cards is a long haul and it might help to have this kind of structure."

Yes, it is a long haul. I've made the trip many times, though, and I'm willing to act as a guide to anyone who wants to follow me. If my program isn't for you, it's not for you -- but lay off the personal attacks, please.

 

[Grizabella]

Well, I do admit that I was being just plain nasty in part of what I said, but I do stand by the essence of what I wrote. I was very sick all day and should have just kept quiet. I couldn't wait to till K. got done with her work on here this evening to get back online to apologize to Corrine for the parts that were just obviously snarky like the ones she quoted because I felt bad about my mean attitude just because I didn't feel well. I should have just waited till I felt better and then come to say what I had to say. I shouldn't have gotten personal. I should have just matter-of-factly and impersonally said my piece and let it go at that.

The fact is, I really don't like your offers for all the reasons I gave (the impersonal ones) and for the reasons others gave similar to mine. But for the nasty, personal digs, I do apologize, Corrinne. And I'm a devoted fan of all your books. They're some of the few I keep for future reference, in fact.

 

[Milfoil]

Someone once asked me why should any healer charge for what they do, surely its a gift which should be shared and they shouldn't exploit those who are in need. This issue feels somewhat similar.

Why does anyone pay for a guided tour when they can walk the route themselves? Why do some people pay to visit museum exhibits or to attend poetry recitals when they can just read the book?

It comes down to worth and value, and that really is up to the individual. It also hinges upon energy exchange too. Having someone offer a service and exchanging some form of energy (in this case money) to do that is balanced.

My Nana used to say that "there is no such thing as a free lunch".

Its the same with diet groups - why would you pay to be part of a group to loose weight, surely you just need to eat appropriately? Because you can't do it on your own and want the push to help you help yourself.

Why do we accept that a certificate for swimming a length of a pool is acceptable but a certificate for writing about each of the 78 tarot cards is not? Both prove that the person achieved what they set out to do, not that they are experts in either swimming or tarot writing.

I personally see no problem if the person wishing to pay for the service knows exactly what is being offered.

 

[Alta]

Moderator note:

Hi all,

I did remove this briefly for review, and agree (responding to a Post Report) that some comments did get rather personal, however am returning it intact.

Please though, when responding, try and make your comments general (as much as possible) and not derogatory directly to others.

Alta
co-Moderator, Talking Tarot

 

[Scion]

Why do we accept that a certificate for swimming a length of a pool is acceptable but a certificate for writing about each of the 78 tarot cards is not? Both prove that the person achieved what they set out to do, not that they are experts in either swimming or tarot writing.

I personally see no problem if the person wishing to pay for the service knows exactly what is being offered.

Because thankfully, if we write something that's awful we don't choke and drown. The certificate that credits someone for having the ability to swim the length of a pool is actually assessing competence, not the ability to stand in knee-high water: it is a measure of skill. Certification is intended to guarantee skill and identifies an ability tested at an established level.

In this case the proven ability is to write 78 paragraphs or pages, but that isn't what the "certificate" actually says. It is misleading, deliberately or optimistically. There is no one determining anyone's ability to smith words before designating someone a "wordsmith." The certificate is an attractive pat on the back for having breathed and typed but it is presented as something else. Now, part of that is, as I mentioend above, a matter of perspective. Everyone has different measures of accomplishment and ability. But I also don't believe that anyone who is calling themselves a "certified Tarot Wordsmith" would be as eager to have an "attractive certificate of achievement" that actually describes the extent of the exercise, because that wouldn't be flattering.

As for "charging for work," I agree in principle, Milfoil, but Corinne said above that the fee wasn't for work but rather to act as a promise of commitment by the folks paying it. So no one can really argue "value for money" because nothing is being purchased and no one is makig that claim. Even Corrine isn't. There is no instruction or critique being offered for it, so the $25 is primarily a watchdog/reminder for people who can't follow through with plans. In essence the $25 is a stick for them to hold over their own heads. As to its purpose, it could just as easily be burnt if they didn't complete the exercise... because it exists only to remind them that they should complete the task. The fact that students requested this is almost the full story, but it shouldn't have been called certification because that is misleading, whether intentionally or no.

Again, I am using Corrine's explanation. The sole benefit purchased for the fee is a fake deadline so unmotivated/undisciplined people will grind out pages. The certificate is a sort of 'added value' that gently misrepresents the exercise by not describing it. There ARE people who have a hard time writing anything, and Corrine envisioned this program for all the people "who don't have the incentive or the discipline to follow through on their writing dreams." Hobbyists. That's great; everyone needs a hobby. The issue really is one of language: nothing is being certified, and the plan is deliberately intended for people too passive to do work on their own. Coaching, not certification. Were it called so, I wouldn't have issue. For my part, I am relentless about responsibility. That's one of my demons. So obviously this kind of plan seems silly and empty... and since Corrine takes pains to point out above that it is for exactly those people without "incentive" or "discipline," I'd add that those people aren't writers and won't be, because writing is entirely about having access to incentive and discipline when no one is offering it. I hold no truck with the post-Oprah belief that empty praise has value. I think it's sweet poison.

Please know... It's not as though this is a massive affront. I'm not losing sleep over this and I don't think it's an evil plot; I was surprised and couldn't follow the logic of offering it at all. Corrine is smart and this didn't seem thought-through thoroughly. Fee-based submission and blind encouragement of would-be writers are something of a bugbear for me. It's my life and I don't take it lightly. To encourage others to do so seems cruel. The compounding factor is the fact that entire parasitic industries exist to prey on amateur writers: foodchains of carefully dispensed hope and praise for a price. There are real writing schools and profit-mills. There are real conferences and moneypits. There are real coaches and shysters. I'd imagine that the students who asked for this strange option are the same folks who fatten the purses of such predators. That doesn't mean that Corrine is one of them, but rather an indication that making this offer puts her close to the border of some unpleasant company. This struck a nerve, and obviously not only with me. If the thought hadn't occurred to her, now it has. So in the end, this thread could accomplish something positive... or not. Time will tell, as it usually does.

S

 

[moderndayruth]

Though it was asked not to get personal on the toppic, i need give a very personal explanation on why i am echoing what Scion said.
As some of you (if not most of the members contributing to this thread) know i am a published writer and a member of the national professional writer's guild. As Scion rightly points, being a writer is a profession, not a hobby - at least for those of us who meet the criteria of being considered profesionals - and there are far more less demanding and promissing ways to earn one's living.
To make the long story short, couple of years ago, a friend asks to have a look on what he writes as he considers quitting the daily job and toiling (it is toiling) as a pro. I read the writing and, at best, its ameteur, which i have to tell him. As passatempo - great, but far not good enough to be published. So, the friend says i am poring on the parade, and bein negative and asks advice from a person he considers his spiritual guide, who is not a professional writer himself. (This in not to draw any parallels with the discussed "certification program", just a matter of fact.) There he receives a pat on the back and encouragment to leave his daily job. Well, it was five years ago and my friend's life got very complicated meanwhile because he doesn't have an income and he never got anything he wrote to be published - not a single word and he regrets very much for having quitt his job.
So, while i wholeheartidly agree that one's dreams should be fostered, and i know from my own experience that where there is a will, there is a way - it would be highly irresponsible NOT to point out that the will and effort must be enormous and that the path is so narrow that actually very few pass.
Giving hope and encouraging - always, but not baselessly and not towards a direction that hardly leads anywhere else than to a huge dissapointment as soon as reality is faced.

eta for typo

 

[le fey]

I'm just musing..not offering any opinion on this particular program - I think some thoughtworthy comments have been made on both sides.

But my thought...

there is a difference between the word 'certificate' and 'certification'. Granting, Corrine is using the word 'certification' which does give rise to the definition and objections being cited here.

Rather, it seems she's offering a certificate - a piece of paper that is signed in recognition of something having been accomplished. Some certificates do in fact attest that you are now 'certified'. Others are simply acknowledgement - you've completed a course, or done a specified bit of work, or participated in a project.

Or that you behaved really well in class for the last six weeks or managed to show up every day or that you have lovely penmanship.

The value of that sort of certificate is between the one offering it and the one receiving it (and yep, if you like that kind you can certainly print one up and sign it yourself unless the value of it is that someone else noticed your accomplishment.

That sort of certificate doesn't make you certified in spelling, or group participation or part of the Official Good Do-Bee Club, but they've been a useful tool since forever in providing a concrete symbol of accomplishment at a personal level. It's similar to Girl Scout badges to help you get through specific goals and then acknowledged for having done them. As another example, talk to any military member and they'll have a 'brag wall' of certificates acknowledging milestone 'attaboys'... only some of them will actually include certification in a skill. There is nothing wrong with recognition of efforts - its a well known motivator.

So maybe the problem is the word 'certification' which *does* have a connotation similar to license or degree where the certification is someone's assessment that this person is skilled enough at this to be publicly and professionally recommended.

I think the effort to write on 78 concepts is a worthy personal goal and if someone doing it wants to pay to have someone else acknowledge that it was done, that's great and their business. But I am not sure if it translates into an attained skill that says anything one way or another about how that skill can be applied in the future. Someone looking to be hired for a writing gig had better expect to show the work, not the certificate that says you did it.

 

[Aulruna]

I was just about to write the same thing as le fey

I have a folder full of papers headed "Certificate", and most of them just attest that I have been somewhere, attended something - actually not even that, given that most of the events I collected my certificates from did never demand any proof of identity, so I could have sent my mother, too.

There is nothing wrong with janding out certificates for people who have taken a class, completed a program or used a service from the issuer.

People should just consider if the certificate or course/program/dare has any correlation with the skill they want to hone or goal they want to accomplish. Mileages may vary greatly - the editor my publisher assigned me for my second book raved about how professional I was ... because I proofread my manuscripts before submitting them to her and because my grammar was so good ... something which I had considered a given but apparently, her experience was different. Personally, I can't see how my writing would improve by writing a specified volume of text following 78 keywords, and it would only make me a Tarot writer in a very literal sense of the word.
Others may see value in it for them.

On a side note, I think Scion is already in that business, at least I have taken a class from him already a year ago, titled "Reading for Writers" ... which btw did improve my writing.