Mi-Shell
I had written this so it sounded you only read 1 card with your "first impression sentence", but you do that for all 12 fan cards and thought I better correct my initial post, for people, who maybe copied this into their notes....
The "Soprafino Tarot" pattern
I had written this so it sounded you only read 1 card with your "first impression sentence", but you do that for all 12 fan cards and thought I better correct my initial post, for people, who maybe copied this into their notes....
Debra
Ah. Got it! Many thanks. Maybe I'll give this a go 
Sherryl
Mi-Shell, I've been using the Soprafino deck for years and am finding your posts totally fascinating. Your grandmother's knowledge is a unique and very precious treasure. I hope you'll write it down so it won't be lost and you'll continue to share it here with your appreciative audience.
Lumen
Hi Mi-Shell
I love Soprafino. It is so beautiful, so expressive, and it seems to speak so much in the world of Tarot reading. And I have tons of questions about Soprafino. The first thing I noticed is that the meanings of cards, such as L'Ermita and Il Sole, as they are totally different from the regular TdM, don't gel. In TdM I see the Sun as a being in the spotlight, sunburned (as one kid guides the other out of the sun light) or day light influence. But in Soprafino this is a happy card, a dance of love and happiness, as the couple has just found their real love and are dancing to celebrate their commitment to themselves; a fortunate and happy change in life. L'Ermita is this old and wise man holding a candle light, he is so old that his silence and look tell you all about who you are and what you've done. He has an innate understanding of what goes on inside your mind and heart.
Well, the interpretation seems easy with the major arcana, however when dealing with numbers and court cards things get even trickier. As you said the Queen of Swords looks very nice with her smile and hand on her heart, she seems to be compassionate and supportive, not the bitter pregnant one from TdM. Then the numbers, as is swords again from 6 and 8 do not have any flower in the center, suggesting that there are no internal stuff being kept from coming out to the surface; and then I get confused being so indoctrinated in the TdM interpretation, mainly from Marteau, the meaning does not gel. So, now I see myself in need of a book to guide me in reading Soprafino. I think you possess the knowledge to make this book real.
Would you please do us the grace of writing your knowledge on this wonderful Soprafino Tarot?
Thank you so much.
I love Soprafino. It is so beautiful, so expressive, and it seems to speak so much in the world of Tarot reading. And I have tons of questions about Soprafino. The first thing I noticed is that the meanings of cards, such as L'Ermita and Il Sole, as they are totally different from the regular TdM, don't gel. In TdM I see the Sun as a being in the spotlight, sunburned (as one kid guides the other out of the sun light) or day light influence. But in Soprafino this is a happy card, a dance of love and happiness, as the couple has just found their real love and are dancing to celebrate their commitment to themselves; a fortunate and happy change in life. L'Ermita is this old and wise man holding a candle light, he is so old that his silence and look tell you all about who you are and what you've done. He has an innate understanding of what goes on inside your mind and heart.
Well, the interpretation seems easy with the major arcana, however when dealing with numbers and court cards things get even trickier. As you said the Queen of Swords looks very nice with her smile and hand on her heart, she seems to be compassionate and supportive, not the bitter pregnant one from TdM. Then the numbers, as is swords again from 6 and 8 do not have any flower in the center, suggesting that there are no internal stuff being kept from coming out to the surface; and then I get confused being so indoctrinated in the TdM interpretation, mainly from Marteau, the meaning does not gel. So, now I see myself in need of a book to guide me in reading Soprafino. I think you possess the knowledge to make this book real.
Would you please do us the grace of writing your knowledge on this wonderful Soprafino Tarot?
Thank you so much.
conurelover
Just finished reading through this wonderful thread.
In my Ancient Italian Tarot two of the queens have their feet on their dresses.
In fact the Queen of Batons has it on top of her under-dress. I couldn't help commenting on those little details. It is a beautiful deck.
I am bumping this wonderful thread.
In my Ancient Italian Tarot two of the queens have their feet on their dresses.
In fact the Queen of Batons has it on top of her under-dress. I couldn't help commenting on those little details. It is a beautiful deck.
I am bumping this wonderful thread.
Mi-Shell
La Papessa
this is one of my most cherished memories.
The story about "Papessa la Luce" = the Popess of Light is also quite "controversial" because i always suspected, that this is not just a meaning "made up"among the gypsy readers of my Gran's time, but is based on historical facts and also, of how the deck creator and Gumpenberg press meant this image to be seen.
Because of this, I asked a few of my friends here, to help do some research on it. today now, I received some confirmation that I very well may be right with my assumptions
But, first here my memory of the story of "La Papessa de Luce"
What I remember about “Papessa la Luce”
She was/ is the daughter of the Pope. She is very smart, but was married to a bad man. So the Pope cut the marriage linen and Lucia came back into the Pope's palace. When he was out or at war, she was reigning in/ on his behalf. She sat on the golden throne of god and kept up the book of numbers, where all the many cardinals’ sins were written down. Therefore they did not dare to say anything.
She knows the secrets of the ??? (there was a special word for that ) 4 winds (elements) and all the plants and potions to be made from them.....and they are hidden in the pin she wears over her heart.
She has a list of everyone's sin, but she will say nothing, if you do not anger her. If you do, she may mix a cup of poisonous wine for you.
…...............................................................................................................................................................
For me this card was the very one by which I was able to identify the deck, that I had last seen as a child of ~~8 as the one, that Gran had, and that also my mother's niece read with and taught me, by telling these stories about the cards. When all the years later I looked through historical decks, it is the papessa with the square pin over the heart and the book that has the lines of writing going vertical, like you would write numbers.
…..............................................................................................................................................................
Historically I personally am convinced that the story of her refers all the way back the Lucretia Borgia.
The “la Luce” or Lucia how she was called also points to that. She at one point sat on her father's papal chair and she also had a baby, Giovanni of whom nobody really knew, who the father was.
Reading through her story I even found a painting showing her as the Papessa:
There is lots and lots to read about her and I think she was a good female leader in northern Italy at her time.
…..................................................................................................................................................................
this is one of my most cherished memories.
The story about "Papessa la Luce" = the Popess of Light is also quite "controversial" because i always suspected, that this is not just a meaning "made up"among the gypsy readers of my Gran's time, but is based on historical facts and also, of how the deck creator and Gumpenberg press meant this image to be seen.
Because of this, I asked a few of my friends here, to help do some research on it. today now, I received some confirmation that I very well may be right with my assumptions
But, first here my memory of the story of "La Papessa de Luce"
What I remember about “Papessa la Luce”
She was/ is the daughter of the Pope. She is very smart, but was married to a bad man. So the Pope cut the marriage linen and Lucia came back into the Pope's palace. When he was out or at war, she was reigning in/ on his behalf. She sat on the golden throne of god and kept up the book of numbers, where all the many cardinals’ sins were written down. Therefore they did not dare to say anything.
She knows the secrets of the ??? (there was a special word for that
) 4 winds (elements) and all the plants and potions to be made from them.....and they are hidden in the pin she wears over her heart.She has a list of everyone's sin, but she will say nothing, if you do not anger her. If you do, she may mix a cup of poisonous wine for you.
…...............................................................................................................................................................
For me this card was the very one by which I was able to identify the deck, that I had last seen as a child of ~~8 as the one, that Gran had, and that also my mother's niece read with and taught me, by telling these stories about the cards. When all the years later I looked through historical decks, it is the papessa with the square pin over the heart and the book that has the lines of writing going vertical, like you would write numbers.
…..............................................................................................................................................................
Historically I personally am convinced that the story of her refers all the way back the Lucretia Borgia.
The “la Luce” or Lucia how she was called also points to that. She at one point sat on her father's papal chair and she also had a baby, Giovanni of whom nobody really knew, who the father was.
Reading through her story I even found a painting showing her as the Papessa:
There is lots and lots to read about her and I think she was a good female leader in northern Italy at her time.
…..................................................................................................................................................................
Attachments
Mi-Shell
About the Papessa la Luce:
Today now I received an e-mail from a friend and in it the notes of an- as for now un-named historical researcher - about this subject:
Quoting this e-mail:
I finally got something from a history buff:
Mi-shell was correct about Lucrezia Borgia.
Firstly in the time of the Soprafino there was strong anti-clericalism going down in France and Italy. Sacred satire as very popular.
Lucrezia Borgia played Hostess for her father the Pope in 1497
Her father gave her the position in 1498, usually given to a cardinal - The Governor of Spoleto.
In 1500-1502,(thats nearly a whole year) when she as 21 her father (Pope Alexander V1) left her as the acting head of the Curia, which is the Papal Court really, especially the administrative body of the Holy See, which is the governing body of the entire Catholic Church. The details in the archives have been closed on this era, and protected by the Vatican. That is why there is no History out there. The Curia would not have opposed the Pope, as they received their power as Cardinals from him.
She did have a good education in languages, music, painting etc, but was considered of mediocre talent. In several studies, she as very good with financial investment, and she was known to have checked the financial records of the Curia- to see who paid the Boccatico Tax (salt tax by head of population) and that tax was extremely unpopular.
At the time the Soprafino as published, Lombardy was very anti Church, and the Borgias' were an example of of the excesses that were still apparent. The French were still looting the church properties.
One of the most vocal of the anti clerics was Victor Hugo- a Rosicrucian and Freemason and he wrote a story of Lucrezia that was made into an opera, and it was very very popular. (1833)I have not found (as yet) the satirical writings that were everywhere about the Borgias, but you can find much lampooning about them in cartoons of Journals. I think the whole deck is satirical. Several strange laws were passed - one was that on the threat of death you were not allowed to Lampoon Holy Communion (but forgot about the wine) and I think the Il Bagattel is poking Borax at that law. These laws were called 'the Force' and you can see that in the Strength card- French Force of the Italian Lion. There was also a marriage law, which was very strange and is still in France today- The King could dispense a political marriage, but no longer the Pope.
There is heaps more....
end Quote
........................................................................................................................................
I hope this learned person takes of the veil and helps us all to dig deeper!
Today now I received an e-mail from a friend and in it the notes of an- as for now un-named historical researcher - about this subject:
Quoting this e-mail:
I finally got something from a history buff:
Mi-shell was correct about Lucrezia Borgia.
Firstly in the time of the Soprafino there was strong anti-clericalism going down in France and Italy. Sacred satire as very popular.
Lucrezia Borgia played Hostess for her father the Pope in 1497
Her father gave her the position in 1498, usually given to a cardinal - The Governor of Spoleto.
In 1500-1502,(thats nearly a whole year) when she as 21 her father (Pope Alexander V1) left her as the acting head of the Curia, which is the Papal Court really, especially the administrative body of the Holy See, which is the governing body of the entire Catholic Church. The details in the archives have been closed on this era, and protected by the Vatican. That is why there is no History out there. The Curia would not have opposed the Pope, as they received their power as Cardinals from him.
She did have a good education in languages, music, painting etc, but was considered of mediocre talent. In several studies, she as very good with financial investment, and she was known to have checked the financial records of the Curia- to see who paid the Boccatico Tax (salt tax by head of population) and that tax was extremely unpopular.
At the time the Soprafino as published, Lombardy was very anti Church, and the Borgias' were an example of of the excesses that were still apparent. The French were still looting the church properties.
One of the most vocal of the anti clerics was Victor Hugo- a Rosicrucian and Freemason and he wrote a story of Lucrezia that was made into an opera, and it was very very popular. (1833)I have not found (as yet) the satirical writings that were everywhere about the Borgias, but you can find much lampooning about them in cartoons of Journals. I think the whole deck is satirical. Several strange laws were passed - one was that on the threat of death you were not allowed to Lampoon Holy Communion (but forgot about the wine) and I think the Il Bagattel is poking Borax at that law. These laws were called 'the Force' and you can see that in the Strength card- French Force of the Italian Lion. There was also a marriage law, which was very strange and is still in France today- The King could dispense a political marriage, but no longer the Pope.
There is heaps more....
end Quote
........................................................................................................................................
I hope this learned person takes of the veil and helps us all to dig deeper!
conurelover
Mi-Shell-
I was about to name out Lucrezia when I started reading your post ha!
She was married to men for her father's own political purposes. During the reign of the Borgia pope-her father-he blackmailed the Cardinals to do his bidding. He threw a prostitute-filled party for them and had all of their activities written down in a book. The Borgias used what was in the book against them. In my Italian history memory, yes, Lucrezia was a known poisoner.
Almost every "state" in Italy at the time of the Borgia pope was anti-Vatican. Deep religious movements sprang up against the Vatican in opposition to the Borgia Pope's lax moral values, i.e. mistresses and illegitimate children and the fact the Rodrigo Borgia wanted to allow his own illegitimate son to secede him as Pope. The Sforzas in Milan (I think that is Lombardy) would not pay homage to the Pope. Florence didn't at one point either and one of the Di Medici's was ex-communicated until he would kiss the Pope's ring. I think the Sforza's commissioned a deck which bears their name today according to Aeclectic Tarot.
Very interesting Mi-Shell.
I was about to name out Lucrezia when I started reading your post ha!
She was married to men for her father's own political purposes. During the reign of the Borgia pope-her father-he blackmailed the Cardinals to do his bidding. He threw a prostitute-filled party for them and had all of their activities written down in a book. The Borgias used what was in the book against them. In my Italian history memory, yes, Lucrezia was a known poisoner.
Almost every "state" in Italy at the time of the Borgia pope was anti-Vatican. Deep religious movements sprang up against the Vatican in opposition to the Borgia Pope's lax moral values, i.e. mistresses and illegitimate children and the fact the Rodrigo Borgia wanted to allow his own illegitimate son to secede him as Pope. The Sforzas in Milan (I think that is Lombardy) would not pay homage to the Pope. Florence didn't at one point either and one of the Di Medici's was ex-communicated until he would kiss the Pope's ring. I think the Sforza's commissioned a deck which bears their name today according to Aeclectic Tarot.
Very interesting Mi-Shell.
Rosanne
As an example, here is one anti cleric painting, done at the end of the 19th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jehan_Georges_Vibert_--The_Fortune_Teller,_private_collection.jpg
~Rosanne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jehan_Georges_Vibert_--The_Fortune_Teller,_private_collection.jpg
~Rosanne
Mi-Shell
Yes
I recently have read a lot about the Borgias and yes, you are right.
But what we today know and are able to research and find out about the truth of the times, very little of that was known to my Gran and the other readers that used the Soprafino deck.
However, they tales of a young lady pope sitting on the throne and keeping score, that was, what the simple people had heard about and were reminded of when the La Papessa card was put onto the table.
