Bernice
Debra: Yes, I've been looking at them. You're right, Kenji has a great collection!
Bee
Bee
What's so great about the Jacques Vieville Tarot?
eugim
Debra:
Thank s for your advice.
So tons of "Beautifull Stars Nights " to you Kenji
Eugim
Thank s for your advice.
So tons of "Beautifull Stars Nights " to you Kenji
Eugim
eugim
Too much have been said about the lateral side reversal or backward topic.
Not less for example the turned upside-down of LE PENDV also.
That s busy me too much because its seems as if Vieville had a simple clumsy carelessness.
Having in hand that he didn t name the cards,he don t leave us much more search avenues.
But with regard to LE PENDV card we have Nicolas Bodet (1743-1751) who clearly established the orientation of the card when he named the card.
So may be here we have a suggestion for the Vieville "problem" I think.
Curiously enough many cards of Bodet somewhat 100 years after from Vieville relate to him.
We have also Dodal (1701) who numbered it IIX as Chosson did.
So I think seriously that this is more than a "clumsy negligence ".
I know that Monsieur Flornoy (For whom I Have the best RESPECT) strongly claimed that Vievile is a deck of a another deck,but for example why if we have Noblet and Dodal with an equal image iconography,Dodal has IIX and not XII as Noblet ? (Excuse my lack of vocabulary again please).
So negligent were them ? / We have no more than 50 years between them.
-And now here I show what for me is like the biggest // ¿? ...
XXI -LE MONDE. // The only deck that show us a different "cross" pattern of the tetramorph.
Usually we have Angel be at loggerheads with the Lion and Eagle with Bull.
But with our dear friend Vieville,we have Angel/Bull -Eagle/Lion.
So here I think we have just not a backward or an upside-down topicas itself ,but a meaning message "in a bottle" .
On a an astrology point of view Acquarius cross with Lion and Bull with Scorpio.
Eugim
Not less for example the turned upside-down of LE PENDV also.
That s busy me too much because its seems as if Vieville had a simple clumsy carelessness.
Having in hand that he didn t name the cards,he don t leave us much more search avenues.
But with regard to LE PENDV card we have Nicolas Bodet (1743-1751) who clearly established the orientation of the card when he named the card.
So may be here we have a suggestion for the Vieville "problem" I think.
Curiously enough many cards of Bodet somewhat 100 years after from Vieville relate to him.
We have also Dodal (1701) who numbered it IIX as Chosson did.
So I think seriously that this is more than a "clumsy negligence ".
I know that Monsieur Flornoy (For whom I Have the best RESPECT) strongly claimed that Vievile is a deck of a another deck,but for example why if we have Noblet and Dodal with an equal image iconography,Dodal has IIX and not XII as Noblet ? (Excuse my lack of vocabulary again please).
So negligent were them ? / We have no more than 50 years between them.
-And now here I show what for me is like the biggest // ¿? ...
XXI -LE MONDE. // The only deck that show us a different "cross" pattern of the tetramorph.
Usually we have Angel be at loggerheads with the Lion and Eagle with Bull.
But with our dear friend Vieville,we have Angel/Bull -Eagle/Lion.
So here I think we have just not a backward or an upside-down topicas itself ,but a meaning message "in a bottle" .
On a an astrology point of view Acquarius cross with Lion and Bull with Scorpio.
Eugim
eugim
1-Only on Vieville LE MAT not named as in the old style,and not numbered,I see his donkey ears untied as only as I know as on Charles VI and on Van den Borre deck.
Also in the end of his backpack stick there is a face with donkey ears,not an end of a spoon as on others decks.
The topic about donkey ears drives me to the that sort of donkey on X card LA ROVE DE FORTVNE,but on Vieville it s ears are untied as on Noblet deck(Both deck done around 1650 as we know.)
On the contrary both ears are tied on Dodal,Chosson and Conver,for example.
I see a link between both cards.
As in one only case as I know (Van den Borre case after somewhat 100 years after and we know he is a somewhat son of him ) .
2-Also on Vieville s LE MAT he goes out of the sequence cards of the deck and also his XIII and XV.I mean they go to the left so Out of Tarot sequence.
Didn t my respected Michael Hurst said "Sequence conveys meanings ".
Could be this implicate that there is a connection between both cards,I mean LE MAT and X ?.
May be on a second reading there is a link with also XIII ( Cleaning work doing for temper the new ours matter a work to do by XIIII card) and XV card (The Matter itself ) so then purified by the fire of the Alchemic furnace on XVI and after this returning to the "Water of life" on XVII card ?
Well for me really is and I so believe it,that Vieville LE MAT is a Master synthesis of the WORK DONE after reached XXI.
So he returns to "Ours World " outside tarot sequence to teach Us.
But he dress himself as a Fool... / Why ? -We know what could occurs if he don t looks as a Donkey ... (As equal as Before with "Ours and other Cultures LE MAT ).
Comes to my mind Visconti LE MAT with his feathers as a subtle allegory of Mercury the Gods Messagers.
Isn t he after the cards sequence ?
Another or again I strongly point that Tarot of Marseilles is an structure of LE MAT + 21 Images Cards.
Not 22 Images cards.
We have of 22,one not numbered LE MAT so for me with no physical place on the sequence and the other XIII not named so for me Death is there but as no named I understand it (Death) relate here to a death of ours emotional and mental death.
So as Flornoy clearly said talking about Noblet XIII why don t name Death as Death ? / I understand him on a physical sense.
Eugim
Also in the end of his backpack stick there is a face with donkey ears,not an end of a spoon as on others decks.
The topic about donkey ears drives me to the that sort of donkey on X card LA ROVE DE FORTVNE,but on Vieville it s ears are untied as on Noblet deck(Both deck done around 1650 as we know.)
On the contrary both ears are tied on Dodal,Chosson and Conver,for example.
I see a link between both cards.
As in one only case as I know (Van den Borre case after somewhat 100 years after and we know he is a somewhat son of him ) .
2-Also on Vieville s LE MAT he goes out of the sequence cards of the deck and also his XIII and XV.I mean they go to the left so Out of Tarot sequence.
Didn t my respected Michael Hurst said "Sequence conveys meanings ".
Could be this implicate that there is a connection between both cards,I mean LE MAT and X ?.
May be on a second reading there is a link with also XIII ( Cleaning work doing for temper the new ours matter a work to do by XIIII card) and XV card (The Matter itself ) so then purified by the fire of the Alchemic furnace on XVI and after this returning to the "Water of life" on XVII card ?
Well for me really is and I so believe it,that Vieville LE MAT is a Master synthesis of the WORK DONE after reached XXI.
So he returns to "Ours World " outside tarot sequence to teach Us.
But he dress himself as a Fool... / Why ? -We know what could occurs if he don t looks as a Donkey ... (As equal as Before with "Ours and other Cultures LE MAT ).
Comes to my mind Visconti LE MAT with his feathers as a subtle allegory of Mercury the Gods Messagers.
Isn t he after the cards sequence ?
Another or again I strongly point that Tarot of Marseilles is an structure of LE MAT + 21 Images Cards.
Not 22 Images cards.
We have of 22,one not numbered LE MAT so for me with no physical place on the sequence and the other XIII not named so for me Death is there but as no named I understand it (Death) relate here to a death of ours emotional and mental death.
So as Flornoy clearly said talking about Noblet XIII why don t name Death as Death ? / I understand him on a physical sense.
Eugim
Bernice
Eugim said:
LE MAT, X and X111: I'll look to see if any link has survived between these cards in the Noblet deck.
Bee
I agree with you Eugim. I think that the coincidence of the 22 Trumps and the 22 paths on the Tree of Life fired the imagination of the esoteric people at that time & place. So they decided to accord the Zero/Kether to LE MAT.
LE MAT, X and X111: I'll look to see if any link has survived between these cards in the Noblet deck.
In the cary-yale sheet there also appears to be monkey in a bag on his back! Although others can see two little faces instead. There's a thread about it here somewhere. A wonderful investigation.......
Bee
eugim
Hi Bee,I ve been lot of of work,so excuse to me Madam.
Cards just for me have an strucure of LE MAT + 21 cards
Shin letter hebrew for me hasn t any link with Tarot of Marseilles.
So not Qabbalah Bee for me here about Tarot of Marseilles.
That s for me was Eliphas Levy opium LIE,Madam...
Eugim
Cards just for me have an strucure of LE MAT + 21 cards
Shin letter hebrew for me hasn t any link with Tarot of Marseilles.
So not Qabbalah Bee for me here about Tarot of Marseilles.
That s for me was Eliphas Levy opium LIE,Madam...
Eugim
Silver Crow
I thought I would revive this thread a bit since I have a copy on it's way to me. I am very intrigued by this deck and I think it will be a good addition to my decks I plan to use while doing a year long intensive historical deck study.
Silver Crow
le pendu said:Take the Chariot, possibly the strangest image in the deck, for instance:
Here's an interesting thought. My husband, who does not read, was looking over my shoulder at this picture tonight and said how odd is that card, a woman chariot driver, driving the man beasts. I hadn't looked at this card in this way, but the driver does look a little like a woman. I'm going to have to think about this for a while.
euripides
I'm reasonably convinced that it is a male figure, not female - I think he's simply interpreting the long hair, and round pauldrons as feminine attributes.
There is a tradition of female sun-deities with the Norse deity Sol being a female charioteer, but I haven't observed any other Norse connection with this deck, not that I've studied it in great depth yet.
There is a tradition of female sun-deities with the Norse deity Sol being a female charioteer, but I haven't observed any other Norse connection with this deck, not that I've studied it in great depth yet.
Silver Crow
Since I'm totally new to this type of deck. What is the face on his shoulder supposed to signify?
