When started woodcut printing?

[Huck]

When started woocut printing?

I would like to bring some light in this "dark question", which consits of a lot of undefined statements with vague content.
As I've heard and read, the first known woodcuts are a picture, which is assumed to be from 1418 and another with St Christopherus from 1423.
In contrast to this "late real evidence" I occasionally stumble about suggestions, which place the begin of early woodcut in the region of playing card beginning. Which would be nearly 50 years before.

Now we, without deep studies about printing techniques, on the base of playing card research found to the observation, that it seems, as if there is playing card wave or fashion in the 20ies of 15th century. We solved this problem by assuming a council of Constance effect - see:

http://trionfi.com/0/c/04/

But considering here and considering there, we're not sure, if this is the truth alone .... would it be possible, that these farspread assumptions about very early woodcut printing were wrong? That woodcut printing really started around the first surviving first documents, ca. 1415/20.
This would explain the wave of playing card progress in the 20's far better than the council of constance statement.

So we're puzzled ... and happy about anybody, who can solve our doubts with good arguments and some evidence, which make any further consideation unnecessary.

 

[baba-prague]

According to most sources, woodcut printing appeared in Europe around 1400 - but was known at least six hundred years earlier in the East.

But if you want a definitive and more accurate answer - backed up by original sources - one of the best libraries (possibly the best in the world) for anything related to the history of printing, is of course St Bride's in London. You could email them or ask someone to go and do the research.

http://www.stbride.org/

By the way, I doubt you will find serious print historians make "assumptions" - in my experience research into printing and type tends to be done (by the serious practitioners) with considerable thoroughness.

 

[Huck]

According to most sources, woodcut printing appeared in Europe around 1400 - but was known at least six hundred years earlier in the East.

But if you want a definitive and more accurate answer - backed up by original sources - one of the best libraries (possibly the best in the world) for anything related to the history of printing, is of course St Bride's in London. You could email them or ask someone to go and do the research.

http://www.stbride.org/

By the way, I doubt you will find serious print historians make "assumptions" - in my experience research into printing and type tends to be done (by the serious practitioners) with considerable thoroughness.

Well, online they don't offer much ...

... good, what is the evidence for woodcut engraving ca. 1400? Something what one finds nearly everywhere.

I guess, it's ONLY the term "Formschneider" in documents, which report about professions.
Later was used for wood engravers.

There is only evidence, that the time later refered to woodcut engraving, there is not evidence, that it was contemporary to 1400 in this way. I just assume so ...

Language has the character, that it changes quickly, especially when the connected history and the media changes. The profession "Formschneider" in 1400 needs NOT necessarily being identical to Formschneider in 1420, when in the meantime woodcut engraving was invented.
Trionfi cards were special cards in 1442, after 1530 it was only a name for a card game. Trionfi cards was a name for cards with 14 trumps, later they had 22 and still were called Trionfi. And Trionfi cards could show gods and heroes and not necessarily Tarot card similar figures.

So, what's the evidence for ca. 1400, when the first known woodcut print is from 1423 or possibly from 1418, as occasionally suggested?

 

[baba-prague]

Well, online they don't offer much ...
?

No, they don't. You'll have to contact them - most large libraries (St Brides is very extensive) are not going to have their entire collection (or even much of it) online.

But if you really want accuracy, no assumptions, and research backed up by sources - they can provide that to a level that I doubt others can match.

Of course if you'd rather just be pointed to the nearest link that's Google-able, well, that's easy enough. Or you can always speculate - nothing wrong with that. Or maybe this was more in the nature of a rhetorical question and you weren't really looking for answers - or leads to answers - but would rather answer the question yourself and just see if it gets any commentary, rather than contributions, in response? That's fine too, but should perhaps be flagged more clearly.

But I thought you were trying to narrow this down to within a few years and base the dates on accurate evidence (forgive me if I have misunderstood) - popular online places like Wikipedia are unlikely to be anything like as accurate as the premier European research centre on the subject. St Brides are very helpful - it's an absolutely great place full of knowledgeable people. You can email them.

Anyway, no need to thank - it was a pleasure ;-)

 

[Huck]

Hm .. you made good experiences there yourself?

 

[baba-prague]

Where, St Brides? Well, I live in Prague! Otherwise I might offer to go there myself for you if that's what you meant (is that what you meant?)

Anyway, St Brides is famous all over the world, anyone doing anything like serious historical research on print or typography knows them. If you contact them and explain what you want they can probably point you in the direction of the best publications (papers as well as books of course). I would guess they do some sort of European inter-library loan as well. Of course, I can't guarantee that they can help - but it's the best and most obvious place to start to anwer your question.

Other than that you could read Walter Ong I guess - but isn't he a bit out of date now? No - forget that one, I doubt it'll help.

Edited to add. Oh - time was when you could have contacted the Typography Dept at Reading University but I don't even know if they are still there (well, I assume they are - it was always the most academic typography course in the country with a great history department) - but why not begin with St Brides, it seems quite easy?

Anyway, best of luck - I'll be interested to read the results of this.

 

[Huck]

Where, St Brides? Well, I live in Prague! Otherwise I might offer to go there myself for you if that's what you meant (is that what you meant?)

Actually ... , yes. I don't make good experiences with such things usually. A funny story: Recently my brother-in-law made a request via email for some material for a holiday trip. No answer. He used the address, but the mail-box of my sister with a recognizable female name and got lots of material. Sic.

You are female, I suppose.

Anyway, St Brides is famous all over the world, anyone doing anything like serious historical research on print or typography knows them. If you contact them and explain what you want they can probably point you in the direction of the best publications (papers as well as books of course). I would guess they do some sort of European inter-library loan as well. Of course, I can't guarantee that they can help - but it's the best and most obvious place to start to anwer your question.

Other than that you could read Walter Ong I guess - but isn't he a bit out of date now? No - forget that one, I doubt it'll help.

Edited to add. Oh - time was when you could have contacted the Typography Dept at Reading University but I don't even know if they are still there (well, I assume they are - it was always the most academic typography course in the country with a great history department) - but why not begin with St Brides, it seems quite easy?

Anyway, best of luck - I'll be interested to read the results of this.

My experience with internet material about early printing had taught me, that there is no good English material offered - at least in the web. Actually most good links are written in German. So you tell here something, which I've trouble to believe.
I can read German, of course. But actually there are problems about the early time.

 

[baba-prague]

You are female, I suppose.

Last time I checked yes. And what on EARTH has that got to do with woodblock printing? This is the Historical forum yes? Gender studies are elsewhere I think LOL

 

[Huck]

Last time I checked yes. And what on EARTH has that got to do with woodblock printing? This is the Historical forum yes? Gender studies are elsewhere I think LOL

Ah, .. it only has something to do with why you think it promising to write to the English library and me not.

 

[baba-prague]

My experience with internet material about early printing had taught me, that there is no good English material offered - at least in the web. Actually most good links are written in German. So you tell here something, which I've trouble to believe.
I can read German, of course. But actually there are problems about the early time.

Well, you don't have to believe me. St Brides is famous and has been for a very long time. Call up any serious German typographer and ask them!!

Not all material for research is on the internet you know. In fact, serious original research still usually requires research libraries (as in physical libraries that have original source material - or at least books and research papers that are too recent to be on the web - for copyright reasons or whatever). One day this will change - but it certainly hasn't yet. If you don't want to do that level of research (and why should you?) then indeed, you may have to make do with some vagueness and assumptions. Or Wikipedia