When started woodcut printing?

[kwaw]

Try this "Calculation of the Ecclesiastical Calendar"

http://www.smart.net/~mmontes/ec-cal.html

Easter 1484 was 18 April.
1485 was 3 April.
1300 was 10 April.

All dates Julian of course.

Thanks Ross, at work when I posted I worked it out in my head [there is a simple formula (well, maybe not so simple, when I first learnt astrology I took the trouble of learning formulas for calculating planetary positions, RA and the rest on calculator and calendar changes on , nonetheless being fairly simple and that being thirty odd years ago and using computer programs for the last ten or so years I worried I may be wrong] just got home and meant to check it out with a program I have but see you have found a program on internet [and checked it out and it agrees the same...phew]. Thanks for the link.

Kwaw

 

[Huck]

Thanks,

Kwaw, Ross, good work.

The connected story is a specific detail of Petrarca's life, in which he met Laura at Good Friday, the 6th, in 1327, and Laura died on the same day, the 6th, also a good Friday, 1348, 21 years later .... sic.

Connected seems the story of Dante, who in Jubilee year 1300 had visionary states for a week at Good Friday starting, when he experienced all that, what he later described in Divina Commedia.

 

[Cerulean]

The 1418 reference is a "Brussels Madonna" for timeline...

Woodcut & Wood Engraving
...Woodcuts were introduced to Europe in the early fifteenth century (the earliest European woodcut is the "Brussels Madonna" of 1418), but were executed in the Orient as early as the ninth century. The use of woodcuts was spread by the inventions of moveable type and of the printing press in the 1450s. Wood engraving was developed in England in the early eighteenth century, firmly established in Europe by Thomas Bewick at the end of that century, and popularized in America during the Civil War.

http://www.philaprintshop.com/whataprt.html

Maybe there are cross-currents that you will uncover that will make this an interesting tidbit for your timelines and research into the spread of woodcut engraving...hope it's helpful in the long run.

Regards,

Cerulean

 

[Rosanne]

Huck, Some five years ago I wrote to the archivists of the Vatican library to find out about holy pictures of Mary Magdalene, that were prior to printing presses, ostensibly for the tourist trade of pilgrims. In the correspondance that followed I was told that indulgences, holy pictures,and single page documents were wood engraved on vellum, parchment and stiffened linen cloth. Part of the correspondance I have copied out for you below. It was then I found out about the illuminators guilds. Maybe it is an avenue for you to follow, because the illuminators were very powerful and paid by the church, so they protected their trade. The archivist seemed to think that the first holy pictures, by woodblock on stiffened linen were in circa 1300-1350.

"Before the hour when the invention of printing permits cheap diffusion of works intended for propagation of ideas and for instruction of the masses, the possibility of multiplying pictures by a cheaper method of reproduction--engraving--had already been conceived. The idea of making books and ornamenting them with pictures came later.
But the privileges of gilds of "historiators" and miniaturists had to be reckoned with . They united to defend their rights against these new processes threatening harm to them. Substitution of paper for parchment, of printing with movable types for calligraphy, use of engraving on wood or metal, these all constituted a new danger for the gilds. Combination of these elements permitted production of illustrated books at a cheaper price than manuscripts.
At the beginning of the conflict the illuminators preserved the craft of coloring their pictures, which threw the engravers into a secondary place. The first printed books imitated manuscripts, because they were printed on vellum, in types suggesting the letters of the manuscripts, ornamented with miniatures or with engravings entirely colored by hand. They tried to give the illusion of being manuscripts. The first printers seemed not to want to harm illuminators trade."

Maybe with your more presise Historian enquiry you could write to the Vatican Library yourself. Your question was 'when start woodcut printing?' I presumed that you meant card's(not necessarily Tarot cards) and I thought Holy pictures were cards.~Rosanne

 

[Huck]

Huck, Some five years ago I wrote to the archivists of the Vatican library to find out about holy pictures of Mary Magdalene, that were prior to printing presses, ostensibly for the tourist trade of pilgrims. In the correspondance that followed I was told that indulgences, holy pictures,and single page documents were wood engraved on vellum, parchment and stiffened linen cloth. Part of the correspondance I have copied out for you below. It was then I found out about the illuminators guilds. Maybe it is an avenue for you to follow, because the illuminators were very powerful and paid by the church, so they protected their trade. The archivist seemed to think that the first holy pictures, by woodblock on stiffened linen were in circa 1300-1350.

"Before the hour when the invention of printing permits cheap diffusion of works intended for propagation of ideas and for instruction of the masses, the possibility of multiplying pictures by a cheaper method of reproduction--engraving--had already been conceived. The idea of making books and ornamenting them with pictures came later.
But the privileges of gilds of "historiators" and miniaturists had to be reckoned with . They united to defend their rights against these new processes threatening harm to them. Substitution of paper for parchment, of printing with movable types for calligraphy, use of engraving on wood or metal, these all constituted a new danger for the gilds. Combination of these elements permitted production of illustrated books at a cheaper price than manuscripts.
At the beginning of the conflict the illuminators preserved the craft of coloring their pictures, which threw the engravers into a secondary place. The first printed books imitated manuscripts, because they were printed on vellum, in types suggesting the letters of the manuscripts, ornamented with miniatures or with engravings entirely colored by hand. They tried to give the illusion of being manuscripts. The first printers seemed not to want to harm illuminators trade."

Maybe with your more presise Historian enquiry you could write to the Vatican Library yourself. Your question was 'when start woodcut printing?' I presumed that you meant card's(not necessarily Tarot cards) and I thought Holy pictures were cards.~Rosanne

Rosanne, this informations doesn't give anything which is controllable. The vague opinion of an archivar 5 years ago, who stated ca. 1300 - 1350 in context to a not really clear medium (printing on stiffened linen - is this textil printing ?), in a private communication cannot serve as base for "sure once made statements with research background". ... Also it cannot serve me as base to write something to the Vatican.

 

[Rosanne]

Rosanne, this informations doesn't give anything which is controllable. The vague opinion of an archivar 5 years ago, who stated ca. 1300 - 1350 in context to a not really clear medium (printing on stiffened linen - is this textil printing ?), in a private communication cannot serve as base for "sure once made statements with research background". ... Also it cannot serve me as base to write something to the Vatican.

Ah Huck you dissappoint me! The Archivists of the Vatican library are Historians and scholars. I understand why private communication is something other than provable- I might be a charlatan! That is why I suggested you write. Write a polite letter with your credentials and ask for the earliest evidence they have for a woodcut card?(it is unlikely to be Tarot lol) They are very helpful and have such a huge resource. Same for the German Illuminators Guild..or the French Guild.. or the Italian Guild...if you want to research that is? ~Rosanne

 

[Huck]

Ah Huck you dissappoint me! The Archivists of the Vatican library are Historians and scholars. I understand why private communication is something other than provable- I might be a charlatan! That is why I suggested you write. Write a polite letter with your credentials and ask for the earliest evidence they have for a woodcut card?(it is unlikely to be Tarot lol) They are very helpful and have such a huge resource. Same for the German Illuminators Guild..or the French Guild.. or the Italian Guild...if you want to research that is? ~Rosanne

... ... All have ideas, how I should spend my time nowadays. If this would be really that, what I search, and if it would be really from 1300 - 1350, then it would be somehow in the web. Even if is real, then it is after the description an early runner of printing methode, which had not much accompanying production. I search indices for a mass production of playing cards via woodcut engraving, not in far distance before, but around 1400. Or in the period1375 - 1420.
For instance we have the German fixed note, that 1390 was the first paper mill in Germany near Nurremberg. But it seems to be true, that earlier were mill experiments near Vienna, and around Mainz / Cologne, possibly also Ravensburg. The likely truth behind it: the peste of 1348-50 had such a devastating effects, that the infrastructure was handicapped and earlier paper mill experiments were destroyed. Also we've the Akkon factor: 1291 still an exchange with eastern products existed on a larger scale, so technology imports could occur from this side. So a single humble printing technology could invade Europe much earlier, but it doesn't mean, that a whole world took a different run.
The question is about a possible estimation statement for instance like: "In the year 1400 about 80 % of all playing cards were woodcut engravings." Possible or impossible? Or 50 %? Or 20 %? 0r 1 %? Or less than 1 %?. Each of the imagined statements would describe "woodcut in development", but naturally each result would indicate another reality.

 

[Rosanne]

Well you have more faith in the internet/web than me. I have a brother that is big in research for Psychriatry- lots of papers for W.H.O- big research grants and he is held in high esteem. If I look on the web- the information is slight compared to the output and his papers are only numbered- so you have to footslog to get information etc.
I think maybe you are optimisticly tunnel visioned about the web. A lot of Historians do not publish via the web- they still letter write to each other or email. It is like a giant Boys Club this History research and if you a amatuer woman you tend to think outside the square (and I am not sexist!) to get information. Historians are also very guarded about what they will tell you about their research. Good luck in your search. ~Rosanne

 

[Huck]

Well you have more faith in the internet/web than me. I have a brother that is big in research for Psychriatry- lots of papers for W.H.O- big research grants and he is held in high esteem. If I look on the web- the information is slight compared to the output and his papers are only numbered- so you have to footslog to get information etc.
I think maybe you are optimisticly tunnel visioned about the web. A lot of Historians do not publish via the web- they still letter write to each other or email. It is like a giant Boys Club this History research and if you a amatuer woman you tend to think outside the square (and I am not sexist!) to get information. Historians are also very guarded about what they will tell you about their research. Good luck in your search. ~Rosanne

THe imagination about early playing cards is, that there is a relatively broad stream, extending over a greater part of Europe, based on real documents in relatively great number. The distribution is fighted by prohibition and it is hard to estimate, how effectful the prohibition were ... many of the prohibition a re only "mild", so there is space for the idea, that there were enough of them.
Playing cards are not known from this time, till the first, which are from 1427 - 1431. And then in greater number.
Now there is the question: Were these mainly self-painted or woodcut engravings? The first extant woodcuts are from 1418/1423. And then in greater number. And there is a wave of playing card documents since the 20ies, from which one can't speak before. Three connected developments - woodcut engravings, real playing cards, and playing cards document - either increase in number or start to exist ... just accidently coincidence? Or just the feature, that woodcut has its breakthrough to first forms of mass-production late in the time of 1415- 1420?

Which would mean, that we for the distribution of woodcut playing cards may assume perhaps "less than 1% of the market" in 1400.

Well, that's simply a working hypothesis.

 

[jmd]

Perhaps, in addition to considerations of woodblocks, an area of interest may be imprints made from other carved sources.

Though I cannot locate it at the moment, there was mention that some of the finer carvings on some northern cathedrals were wiped with a clay (or ochre?) and 'transferred' to a piece of material for the carver to keep a copy of his work as he travelled from site to far-away construction site.

Further research on this may also be useful. The place I read it, from memory, had this more as a small footnote than a major item of research.

For our purposes, it may perhaps also lead to investigations as to the possible relationship between larger carvings used for imprints, and the smaller ivory and wood carvings that would then easily be seen as a medium for re-producing images.