Xiiii - Lemperance
Diana
edited
jmd
catlin earlier posted (about 6 posts back), in relation to considerations about the cardinal virtues, whether the 'missing' virtue (Wisdom) could be seen in the Latin word Prudentia (it definitely semantically relates), and whether it could be related 'to the Pope/Hierophant card'.
I personally would find this latter relation difficult - as it is, I think, unlikely. Though Wisdom can flow through the Pope, the representation of the virtue is unlikely to be illustrated, or depicted, by such an office or position.
Still, this, as any, is a worthy consideration, for one would expect that, in addition to truth and compassion, wisdom also passes the lips of the person occupying the Chair of St Peter.
With regards to Diana's previous post, instead of finding a new one, why not just delete the last four words of your previously stated life goal:
I personally would find this latter relation difficult - as it is, I think, unlikely. Though Wisdom can flow through the Pope, the representation of the virtue is unlikely to be illustrated, or depicted, by such an office or position.
Still, this, as any, is a worthy consideration, for one would expect that, in addition to truth and compassion, wisdom also passes the lips of the person occupying the Chair of St Peter.
With regards to Diana's previous post, instead of finding a new one, why not just delete the last four words of your previously stated life goal:
- I am going to read every single book on Marseilles tarot that I can get my hands on until I find out.
Cerulean
The angel Temperance
This might assist. It may be over time, you could trace the angel Temperance and the angel in Judgment as most recognizeable from Christian imagery. If so, as a recognizable entity, it may be no older than the 4th century when Christianity was legalized in the Roman Empire. This is speculation: the link below is historical and Tom Tadforlittle is an excellent researcher---which he does for pleasure. By work I believe he's a mathematician/physicist (sp).
http://www.tarothermit.com/temperance.htm
This might assist. It may be over time, you could trace the angel Temperance and the angel in Judgment as most recognizeable from Christian imagery. If so, as a recognizable entity, it may be no older than the 4th century when Christianity was legalized in the Roman Empire. This is speculation: the link below is historical and Tom Tadforlittle is an excellent researcher---which he does for pleasure. By work I believe he's a mathematician/physicist (sp).
http://www.tarothermit.com/temperance.htm
Diana
edited
catboxer
I'm back from an interlude in America's best kept secret, the Olympic Peninsula. Don't tell anybody.
This is an extremely interesting thread, and I've enjoyed reading it this morning, which is a bright, hot Tuesday here in Okietown. I noticed that Mari referred to the Tarothermit analysis by TT Little, and as usual, his rundown of this subject is so perceptive and complete that he leaves me not much to say, but I'll try.
I noticed that the cards Little used to illustrate his essay showed a variety of spellings: "Tenperance" (a stenciled woodcut), "La Temperance" (appears to be a hand-colored woodcut), and even "L'Intemperanza," a very beautifully drawn Italian card which I believe conveys the opposite meaning of what's intended. Kaplan theorizes that these kinds of variations are the result of nothing more than the illiteracy of many of the woodblock carvers, and following the rule of Occam's Razor (opting for the explanation that is both plausible and simplest), I tend to agree with him.
Little also says much about this card appearing to be out of sequence. Logically, it should be part of a group of seven -- the human states and virtues -- which includes Love, War (VII), Time (VIIII), and Fortune, plus Fortitude and Justice. But if these seven were grouped together, the arrangement would displace XII and XIII, which have nearly always held those places. Some early decks deal with the problem by placing Justice at XX, so that the scales of judgment are associated with the Angel of judgment, and Temperance then is moved to an earlier position (sometimes VI). But this doesn't solve the problem either. In its present, Marseilles position, it's hard not to associate this card with reincarnation.
Other points discussed here included the "angel question." Michael Dummett believes the wings are a copyist's error, deriving from a misinterpretation of the wings of the high-backed chair upon which this virtue sometimes sits. This observation applies most pertinently to the so-called Charles VI/Gringonneur deck in the French National Library, and may offer a clue to the Marseilles origins and iconography. In the antecedent Visconti decks, none of the virtues are angels.
Finally (puff, puff), the significance of the act of pouring water from one vessel to another is, I believe, fairly straightforward, and its meaning is symbolically obvious. Little mentions, almost in passing, that the figure of Temperance is "watering the wine." This was a practice that began with the Romans (or maybe earlier), and seems to have lasted into Renaissance times. For all I know, maybe even modern Italians mix warm water with their wine (anybody out there familiar with Italian drinking habits?). This of course reduces the alcohol content of the beverage, or "tempers" it so as to moderate the effect. This picture is advising us to do the same in all aspects of our lives.
I'm glad to be back, and it's nice to hear some new voices in this corner of the forum, as well as the familiar ones.
CB
This is an extremely interesting thread, and I've enjoyed reading it this morning, which is a bright, hot Tuesday here in Okietown. I noticed that Mari referred to the Tarothermit analysis by TT Little, and as usual, his rundown of this subject is so perceptive and complete that he leaves me not much to say, but I'll try.
I noticed that the cards Little used to illustrate his essay showed a variety of spellings: "Tenperance" (a stenciled woodcut), "La Temperance" (appears to be a hand-colored woodcut), and even "L'Intemperanza," a very beautifully drawn Italian card which I believe conveys the opposite meaning of what's intended. Kaplan theorizes that these kinds of variations are the result of nothing more than the illiteracy of many of the woodblock carvers, and following the rule of Occam's Razor (opting for the explanation that is both plausible and simplest), I tend to agree with him.
Little also says much about this card appearing to be out of sequence. Logically, it should be part of a group of seven -- the human states and virtues -- which includes Love, War (VII), Time (VIIII), and Fortune, plus Fortitude and Justice. But if these seven were grouped together, the arrangement would displace XII and XIII, which have nearly always held those places. Some early decks deal with the problem by placing Justice at XX, so that the scales of judgment are associated with the Angel of judgment, and Temperance then is moved to an earlier position (sometimes VI). But this doesn't solve the problem either. In its present, Marseilles position, it's hard not to associate this card with reincarnation.
Other points discussed here included the "angel question." Michael Dummett believes the wings are a copyist's error, deriving from a misinterpretation of the wings of the high-backed chair upon which this virtue sometimes sits. This observation applies most pertinently to the so-called Charles VI/Gringonneur deck in the French National Library, and may offer a clue to the Marseilles origins and iconography. In the antecedent Visconti decks, none of the virtues are angels.
Finally (puff, puff), the significance of the act of pouring water from one vessel to another is, I believe, fairly straightforward, and its meaning is symbolically obvious. Little mentions, almost in passing, that the figure of Temperance is "watering the wine." This was a practice that began with the Romans (or maybe earlier), and seems to have lasted into Renaissance times. For all I know, maybe even modern Italians mix warm water with their wine (anybody out there familiar with Italian drinking habits?). This of course reduces the alcohol content of the beverage, or "tempers" it so as to moderate the effect. This picture is advising us to do the same in all aspects of our lives.
I'm glad to be back, and it's nice to hear some new voices in this corner of the forum, as well as the familiar ones.
CB
jmd
Glad to have you back, catboxer.
You mention the tempered meaning of pouring water into the wine. This also occurs, incidently, in France. I remember when young that in many of the homes I visited, dinner was usually accompanied by watered down wine. This aspect of the card, I must admit, is one of those which may appear so obvious as to not be mentioned - yet you're correct - it should be, for it is an aspect which certainly counters my own adopted Australian culture, in which one wouldn't dare water down such substance... you'd have to drink twice as much!
The wings on the card may, of course, been a misinterpretation of another depiction, as is sometimes also claimed for other cards. Yet its very position on the sequence makes it quite appropriate. That the pre- and non-Marseilles sequences vary shows that there are other sequences which are meaningful, as we well know from mixing the cards and placing them in any order - or from looking simply through a Waite/Colman-Smith deck. Its positioning between Death and the Devil, on the other hand, especially with its given title of Temperance, also points to what the living person may very well have considered possible consequences should an intemperate life be lived.
You mention the tempered meaning of pouring water into the wine. This also occurs, incidently, in France. I remember when young that in many of the homes I visited, dinner was usually accompanied by watered down wine. This aspect of the card, I must admit, is one of those which may appear so obvious as to not be mentioned - yet you're correct - it should be, for it is an aspect which certainly counters my own adopted Australian culture, in which one wouldn't dare water down such substance... you'd have to drink twice as much!
The wings on the card may, of course, been a misinterpretation of another depiction, as is sometimes also claimed for other cards. Yet its very position on the sequence makes it quite appropriate. That the pre- and non-Marseilles sequences vary shows that there are other sequences which are meaningful, as we well know from mixing the cards and placing them in any order - or from looking simply through a Waite/Colman-Smith deck. Its positioning between Death and the Devil, on the other hand, especially with its given title of Temperance, also points to what the living person may very well have considered possible consequences should an intemperate life be lived.
Cerulean
Other people who might be interested in medieval and renaissance thinking might note that literature that spans the 1300s through the 1530s periodically 'rediscovers' or reworks classical (Greco-Roman) writings. In the case of around 1300, before the Black Death (1340s and thereabouts), there was some prosperity and eager growth among the mercantile class, especially Italy. Dante and Petrach are mentioned as pivotal thinkers and writers (Dante in the 1290s, Petrach later). Dante first mentions the theological and then cardinal virtues and a triumph parade in Cantos 28 to the end of Purgatorio. It's led by a griffin (symbolic of JC) in a chariot that his favored Beatrice drives and the Virtues are dancing around the chariot.
Dante was doing the medieval thinking thing of combining everything they believed or read into one grand pagent. The Catholic poets of these Middle Ages thought anything wonderful and glorious they conceived in such parades would be a pale reflection of the Heavenly areas.
Petrach and then later poets--including Lorenzo the Magificent in the 1470s--write triumph poetry that reflected their age. While not all of them had the Theological and Cardinal virtues, if people want to research the Italian trumps, the poets are a good place to get snapshots of beliefs of the time.
I hope this isn't too longwinded--I'm in a Dante seminar this summer after my working hours and starting in the Fall, I'm beginning a special humanities Western mind series. It's helped me learn more about tarocchi art and vice versa--words and pictures of the time! I'll post a link to the teacher's website if that helps others research medieval through Renaissance thinkers.
www.motwm.com/
Mari Hoshizaki
Dante was doing the medieval thinking thing of combining everything they believed or read into one grand pagent. The Catholic poets of these Middle Ages thought anything wonderful and glorious they conceived in such parades would be a pale reflection of the Heavenly areas.
Petrach and then later poets--including Lorenzo the Magificent in the 1470s--write triumph poetry that reflected their age. While not all of them had the Theological and Cardinal virtues, if people want to research the Italian trumps, the poets are a good place to get snapshots of beliefs of the time.
I hope this isn't too longwinded--I'm in a Dante seminar this summer after my working hours and starting in the Fall, I'm beginning a special humanities Western mind series. It's helped me learn more about tarocchi art and vice versa--words and pictures of the time! I'll post a link to the teacher's website if that helps others research medieval through Renaissance thinkers.
www.motwm.com/
Mari Hoshizaki
Diana
edited
Kaz
