PIRUCHO
Hello Kwaw:
Is it not a hospital at the end ?
Is it not a hospital at the end ?
XVI - La Maison Diev
kwaw
PIRUCHO said:
A hospital but also a place of hospitality, a hostel, a pilgrim's rest, a place for social occassions to be held such as weddings, a poor house, a place dedicated to prayers for the souls of its benefactors in purgatory...
PIRUCHO
Yes Kwaw.I am agree by extension.An hospital of body and soul.
But the point is how a TdB pattern is find in a supposed TdM deck as Jodo/Tourrase deck ?
Best regard as ever !
But the point is how a TdB pattern is find in a supposed TdM deck as Jodo/Tourrase deck ?
Best regard as ever !
PIRUCHO
well,precisely all the historical sources drives to that side you mentioned before.
Melanchollic
Keep in mind, the TdM pattern is somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 years after the tarot allegory was first concocted. I wouldn't look to a later pattern, like the TdM pattern, to make any definitive conclusions about the true meaning of the Tower allegory. Also keep in mind, that while the TdM pattern is most likely modeled on an authentic Italian pattern, the attaching of the names to the trumps was done by the French. A different country, and a different time - it is highly likely that the French card makers didn't quite understand the original allegory themselves, and their peculiar naming of this trump seems to support this conclusion. Earlier documents refer to this trump as Fire, Lightning, and The Devil's House. Myopically focusing on just this later French name, without considering the older names is probably a poor way to come to a reasonable theory on the cards function in the trump allegory.
Likewise, putting any significants on the 'micro-details' of the card, like how many windows or doors there are, are even the falling figures, is non-productive. We have to consider all the 15th and 16th century examples of this trump to come to any intelligent conclusions. The Noblet, the Chosson, and the Madenie are the latest tarot packs I'd consider significant here. The plethora of mass market TdM clones and their variants produced in France in the 17th and 18th centuries don't tell us anything about the original allegory.
On top of that, we can not ignore the total sequence of the trumps and its overall allegory, keeping in mind regional ordering variations, and seeing if our conclusions make sense within the context of the overall allegory.
Likewise, putting any significants on the 'micro-details' of the card, like how many windows or doors there are, are even the falling figures, is non-productive. We have to consider all the 15th and 16th century examples of this trump to come to any intelligent conclusions. The Noblet, the Chosson, and the Madenie are the latest tarot packs I'd consider significant here. The plethora of mass market TdM clones and their variants produced in France in the 17th and 18th centuries don't tell us anything about the original allegory.
On top of that, we can not ignore the total sequence of the trumps and its overall allegory, keeping in mind regional ordering variations, and seeing if our conclusions make sense within the context of the overall allegory.
kwaw
PIRUCHO said:
Well, a TdB is basically a TdM with popesse and pope replaced by Juno and Jupiter. A door or no door on the tower is just another of those regional or periodic variations of the TdM, like cupid on the lovers being blindfolded or not, or a scalloped canopy on the chariot. If a tower with a door is more common in existent TdB decks that would suggest to me that the 'with door' variation of the TdM was more common perhaps in those regions that changed the two P's with the two J's.
'With door' tower variations of the TdM are also found in 19th century Italian versions of the TdM, these tend to show only one figure falling and sometimes one on the ground, but on some no figures at all (and is called la torre ~ the tower, not La Maison Dieu ~ the house of god). For examples the Edouardo Dotti c.1862, the Lamperti c.1848/61.
Muhlemann and Walther Tarot, c. 1885 / 87 is very similar to the Swiss 1JJ but retains the popesse and pope, its 'la maison de dieu' is struck by lightening, has a door, a falling figure and one on the ground.
La Torre of Gumppenberg's Lombardy Tarot c.1823/40is interesting in that it has a shield with the visconti emblem on it...
...towers, visconti & lightning!
...Visconti's lightning struck towers of Bellinzona.
Melanchollic
As I've posted before, I believe the Tower card most likely is a representation of the 'Harrowing of Hell' or 'Christ's Decent into Limbo' motif. To avoid depicting the Savior on a gaming card, the 'cracking open of limbo' is shown via a bolt from heaven in the TdM. Other early patterns differ. The TdM also alters the standard 'Christ in Majesty' icon to avoid depicting him on a gaming card.
Purgatory/Limbo is a kind of temporary hell where everyone will go, short of the perfect Saint, to burn off, or purge, their minor sins, and await Judgement, which is the release from Purgatory (XVI). At Judgement (XX) it will be decided who goes to Hell (XV), and who to Heaven (XXI). The medieval imagery of Hell and Purgatory is actually quite similar, and both were often depicted as Towers.
I believe in the tarot trumps the idea is...
This has a nice symmetry within the sequence:
HELL/PURGATORY--------------THE INTERIM (Creation)------------JUDGEMENT/HEAVEN
Popular tarot writer Paul Huson writes in his Mystical Origins of the Tarot (pp. 33-34.) about Tarot's roots in the Trionfi parades, and how these decorated floats and pageant carts at festivals had evolved from the early medieval Mystery Plays,
Here is the stage design for the set for the Valenciennes mystery play by Hubert Cailleau, 1547. Compare it to the last third of the trump allegory.
HELL/PURGATORY---------------------THE INTERIM (Creation)-------------The New Jerusalem (Heaven)
HELL/PURGATORY--------------THE INTERIM (Creation)------------JUDGEMENT/HEAVEN
This type of stage arrangement was standard, with heaven/purgatory on one end, and heaven on the other. In the center, between the two, was where the 'mortal realm' was portrayed. The Last Judgement and the Harrowing of Hell (release from purgatory) were both common play themes. This arrangement is easily seen in the tarot trumps as well. Obviously the card game of 'trionfi' (tarot) was inspired by the trionfi parades, which evolved out of the medieval dramas. I speculate that the first trionfi deck was made to commemorate one particularly grand trionfi parade sequence.
Purgatory/Limbo is a kind of temporary hell where everyone will go, short of the perfect Saint, to burn off, or purge, their minor sins, and await Judgement, which is the release from Purgatory (XVI). At Judgement (XX) it will be decided who goes to Hell (XV), and who to Heaven (XXI). The medieval imagery of Hell and Purgatory is actually quite similar, and both were often depicted as Towers.
I believe in the tarot trumps the idea is...
- The Devil = Hell
- The Tower = Purgatory
This has a nice symmetry within the sequence:
HELL/PURGATORY--------------THE INTERIM (Creation)------------JUDGEMENT/HEAVEN
Popular tarot writer Paul Huson writes in his Mystical Origins of the Tarot (pp. 33-34.) about Tarot's roots in the Trionfi parades, and how these decorated floats and pageant carts at festivals had evolved from the early medieval Mystery Plays,
"...the pageant carts would be led through four or five gaps in an outdoor circular auditorium of raked bleachers. Those representing heaven and hell would be brought into position first and left in place through the entire performance.
These wagons were two-tiered towers. On heaven's battlements Jehovah, the archangels, and the angelic choir would appear. On hell's tower the devils would set watch on the battlements during the "Harrowing" play. Beneath or beside hell's tower, limbo would be located, represented as a grating or prison. (In Roman Catholic theology, limbo was a region between heaven and hell to which were consigned the souls of men who died before coming the coming of Christ, and those of infants who died before baptism.) Close to limbo would be placed the gaping jaws of Hell-Mouth - a dragon's head belching flames - through which actors portraying devils and damned souls would pass by trapdoor to the ground level beneath the pageant."
These wagons were two-tiered towers. On heaven's battlements Jehovah, the archangels, and the angelic choir would appear. On hell's tower the devils would set watch on the battlements during the "Harrowing" play. Beneath or beside hell's tower, limbo would be located, represented as a grating or prison. (In Roman Catholic theology, limbo was a region between heaven and hell to which were consigned the souls of men who died before coming the coming of Christ, and those of infants who died before baptism.) Close to limbo would be placed the gaping jaws of Hell-Mouth - a dragon's head belching flames - through which actors portraying devils and damned souls would pass by trapdoor to the ground level beneath the pageant."
Here is the stage design for the set for the Valenciennes mystery play by Hubert Cailleau, 1547. Compare it to the last third of the trump allegory.
HELL/PURGATORY---------------------THE INTERIM (Creation)-------------The New Jerusalem (Heaven)
HELL/PURGATORY--------------THE INTERIM (Creation)------------JUDGEMENT/HEAVEN
This type of stage arrangement was standard, with heaven/purgatory on one end, and heaven on the other. In the center, between the two, was where the 'mortal realm' was portrayed. The Last Judgement and the Harrowing of Hell (release from purgatory) were both common play themes. This arrangement is easily seen in the tarot trumps as well. Obviously the card game of 'trionfi' (tarot) was inspired by the trionfi parades, which evolved out of the medieval dramas. I speculate that the first trionfi deck was made to commemorate one particularly grand trionfi parade sequence.
Huck
Melanchollic said:
Following is the description of the highest trump Jove in the text of Martiano da Tortona, which accompanied the production of a playing card deck, which might be interpreted as old "Trionfi" deck, perhaps even it commemorated a Trionfi parade, which took place in June 1425 in Milan and perhaps it was even the oldest Trionfi deck.
compare
http://trionfi.com/0/b
http://trionfi.com/0/b/11/
"JOVE
Jove, who was the King of Athens while antiquity was still rough and wild. For the race of man, there was yet no justice, and man followed savage rites; Jupiter established the first laws. And he instituted matrimony, and banished the abominable feasts on human flesh, and forbade them by strict rigour. He induced the first society and friendship, and taught to men what is most necessary.
He commanded the first temples and altars to the immortal gods to be built, and to venerate them with the highest dignity. And the men asked the gods anything of the good that they desired. And if he deemed it worthy he would himself fulfil what they had prayed for. The inventor of wars, he overcame the Giants, mockers of the gods, and afflicted them with onerous punishment. Therefore on account of his outstanding virtue, the former age venerated him, and he was esteemed by the people as a god. And he was called Good Jove, and temples were dedicated to him, to the perpetual memory of his glory. Thus holding the divine honour, his name was received by posterity in the highest veneration. He is seated on a starry throne, with regal emblems.
Four stars appearing above, attend him, while by the right part a splendour of right reason [= SUN ?] of the conduct of humanity, in which customs he instructed ingnorant men, the first leaders of the state. At the left that light by which he published the inviolable laws [= MOON ?] and he decreed the society which would be cherished by humankind, being guarded by equality. On the lower right side appears a burning star like Mars [= STAR ?], which he lets loose frightfully if scorned, but especially so that the republic may be preserved. How the illustrious example of Jupiter shines for men! Who for the sake of sacred worship happily defeated the blaspheming Giants by war. To the left, a thunderbolt, which at one time he often used to protect his sacred laws [= Tower or lightning ?] against so many lustful and violent men."
In the last passage of the Jupiter card, which is inside the Michelino deck the highest trump and card Nr. 16 (or 15 ?) as the Tower in later Tarot, four lights appear in each corner, possibly presenting objects, which appear in the later Tarot as cards Nr. 16-17-18-19 (or resp. 15-16-17-18) and are best represented as "four lights" (not three lights, as you presented above in your contribution).
In the row, which also appears as Marseille Tarot the 4 lights are mirrored by the 4 persons
0 Fool mirrored by 21 World
1 Magician mirrored by 20 Judgment
(4 Persons mirrored by 4 lights)
2 Popess mirrored by 19 Sun
3 Empress mirrored by 18 Moon
4 Emperor mirrored by 17 Star
5 Pope mirrored by 16 Lightning
Compare
http://trionfi.com/0/g/61/
The Jupiter with 4 lights in the corners might indeed have painted similar to the later world card with its 4 evangelists.
Well, the first Trionfi deck is not naturally the first Tarot deck, if one interprets Tarot as a deck form, which possessed 22 special cards.
Melanchollic
Fudugazi said:
I can't speak for Huck, but I suspect those exploring historic decks and using them, would be interested in knowing what these cards actually represented when they were made. That of course takes a little convincing, since, to quote Dummett, "An entire false history, and false interpretation of the Tarot pack was concocted by the occultists...". I too am but putting forward theories, though I try to keep them historically viable.
If one comes to see why the Tower works as 'purgatory', then one will rethink what it would mean in a divinatory situation, say suspension, a long delay, immovability verses the sudden disasterous blast usually associated with the card.
If we look at the overall 'third tier' as illustrated above we find a rich source for divinatory expression, and best of all, its not completely ignoring the real known history of the trionfi pack.
The balance is perfect.
XV/XXI - Evil vs. Good
XVI/XX - Suspension vs. Release
In the center, the Celestial Orbs plow through
their cycles between the two super-celestial realms.
XVI/XX - Suspension vs. Release
In the center, the Celestial Orbs plow through
their cycles between the two super-celestial realms.
Arranged in three tiers, sans virtues, we can see a perfect harmony of allegory both vertically and horizontally, that does not alter from regional order to regional order.
The malefics all to the sinister side, the benefics all to the dexter side, the fluctuation of the middle - the eternal 'tug-o-war'. The Celestial Orbs, by their endless movement through the zodiac do cause the action of the tier below them. These heavenly bodies indeed cause the movement of Father Time and Fortune's fickle Wheel. Just below Time and Fortune are the allegories of Church and State.
Here is where these forces are most felt, through the rise and fall of empires. And who flanks these grand ladies? To the sinister, those who would rape and abuse them - Folly and Deceit. To the dexter those who defend them - Nobility and Godliness.
Is this the original allegory of the 22 Trumps?! I'd say it is at least in the same ballpark. Of course, I could be mistaken, but at least it is a historically arguable theory, and it gives us a perfectly balanced allegory to hang our divinations upon. If someone's got something more convincing, I'll toss this theory right in trash.
---SPECIAL ADDED BONUS FOR JUST THE SEXY PEOPLE---
A practical divinatory application of this -
Folly, Deceit, Nobility and Godliness are ACTIVE in their effect on Church and State, who are PASSIVE. Time and Fortune are ACTIVE in their effect on Life's Loves, Honors, Dishonors, and our Death, which are all PASSIVE. The forces of Evil and Good are ACTIVE on the realm of creation which is PASSIVE. Hence...
Here are the essentials of divination -
1) Dignity (How good are bad a thing is.)
2) Movement (If it is active. passive, or neutral.)
2) Movement (If it is active. passive, or neutral.)
Sophie
That's much better, thanks Mel
Although I have to say - the actual image of the Maison-Dieu contradicts your thoughts about suspension. Its name (hospital) might either reinforce them, or contradict them: especially if one sees sickness not as suspension but as initiation. Your reference to cracking open of limbo is also an initiatory image/mythical-magical pattern, which predates Christianity but was picked up by Christians and integrated in their theology (and their games).
There is a fundamental opposition between the idea of suspension and the idea of cracking open - while initiation does have several stages, which might involve both suspension and a sudden, irretrievable, change - what is depicted on this card is a lightning bolt, not a usual image of suspension. Moving too far away from that image in order to fit a predefined pattern is stretching it too far; to be blunt: it doesn't fit.
Although I have to say - the actual image of the Maison-Dieu contradicts your thoughts about suspension. Its name (hospital) might either reinforce them, or contradict them: especially if one sees sickness not as suspension but as initiation. Your reference to cracking open of limbo is also an initiatory image/mythical-magical pattern, which predates Christianity but was picked up by Christians and integrated in their theology (and their games).
There is a fundamental opposition between the idea of suspension and the idea of cracking open - while initiation does have several stages, which might involve both suspension and a sudden, irretrievable, change - what is depicted on this card is a lightning bolt, not a usual image of suspension. Moving too far away from that image in order to fit a predefined pattern is stretching it too far; to be blunt: it doesn't fit.
