20 Yrs of Tarot: The LoS Story

le pendu

I own the Dante and the Liber T, only because I love this artist's work.

These are some of the most beautiful TdM images I have ever seen, I would absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE to have this deck, (without the multi-titles!!!), and would pay a premium for a special edition to get it if I had to.

PLEASE Riccardo, THIS is the deck LS needs to be printing!
 

RiccardoLS

I understand quite well the way you are feeling (I think so anyway).
Too many times I feel as a customer... when things I consider basically crap gets promoted and may be found everywhere, while things I value are routinely neglected.

I guess we all understand that Briteny Spears wll always sell more than jazz, and than Ocean 12 will get more money than a David Linch movie. I - on my side - still hope that this is not SO true.
I still can't understand the true extent of the market laws. It seems that everywhere, whatever the product (I'm not talking Tarot) the pespective buyer is never informed, is very conservative, and unimaginative. From clothes to food.

If I were to read this thread and this thread only, I would say that the Serio Marseille will be an incredible success, with almost a 100% appreciation rate. However, all considered, in LS we have received just three mails regarding the deck.
Even on Aeclectic that - with all defects - is a sanctuary for people that love Tarot, and really really love it - the deck went almost unnoticed. If there were two hundread mails... maybe it would be different.

I'm not making an excuse out of it... I'm not saying that unless LS can do tons of money, a deck should not be done. But decks that are a going to cost more than they gain have to be carefully balanced.
I must admit that we would prefer to consider some experimental "new" deck, in this direction, rather than a new take on same old. And yet we could be open.
But certainly not now.
We want Andrea Serio make a new Tarot deck (and then more) and the TdM would be the best way to make sure he will never do another.

There is a suggestion to ask Tarot Garden for marketability of the deck.
I open the TG website and what I find: "your source for unusual, hard-to-find, rare collectable decks". Unusual, hard to find and rare... it is the very definition of a limited, niche, elite market. :(

I could have given a more "company-wise" answer... so full of promise and vague.
My perception is just that we are on some level "opposite" to each other. We publish, you buy. On another level we are "friends", and we can collaborate to Tarot.

The only answer I can give is "not today, maybe tomorrow".
We - all of us - need decks that are something special.
But none of those decks will ever be on the bestseller list. :((

When the north American market (or any other market) will really be opening to Marseille decks on a broader basic we will see it reflected on sales. We will jump at the slightest signal.

So I must say I'm sorry. :(

The book wanted to illustrate what we could do.
Of course, you all know very well our faults, but I hope than the book has ignited at least in someone a spark of what could be a vision from above of the Tarot world.
Possibilities, and roads that may open, and may lead someplace new, we have still not jet discovered.


Regarding the multilingual decks... again while I see a definite opinion here on Aeclectis it does not reflect on sales. Quite the opposite.
If a distributor, for example, in France orders 1000 copies of a deck... he would only order 500, if there are no French titles.
Please, have a look at the decks we have produced in the last years.... and see how many had not titles. (that was a cost to LS. A cost in order to follow what we perceive to be the most advanced par tof our customers. A cost to improve and to keep going. Still a cost, anyway.)

All the best,

a sad Ric
 

Bonnie

The Future

Riccardo:

You make many salient points here. This is what I see: that decks do have to make a profit (not only major publishers but any Indies out there understand this ... time and attention given to a product that does not cover it's costs will break you), that the market reflects the interests of the public (except for those few times when a product is so good that it creates a nich for itself), and that the Tarot public will not, for the most part, be willing to pay the price for a unique or "specialty" deck.

Truth be known, I too fuss about the multi-language titles on the cards. However, if we choose to look at the "glass half full" scenario here ... we are offered an opportunity to see the deck titles in other languages, and to learn something. In doing this, Lo Scarabeo is able to do one deck and sell it in multiple markets (countries) with no problem. If Lo Scarabeo were to do one language only, I would not blame them in the slightest for choosing to do it in Italian! ;-)

I do think that buyers are putting forth the energy to become more informed. The majority of the buyers will, IMHO, tend towards the conservative. This too I feel is changing. As well as the unimaginative part ... we are nowhere near where will be, or we could be, but we aren't where we were. ;-)

The reality of the Tarot world is that people do not often take action (as in e-mailing Lo Scarabeo to let them know what they are interested in seeing). I would like to see the Marseilles-style Tarot gain equal footing outside of Europe ... and, in small steps, I do believe that it is doing that.

I loved the book ... and was very careful not to drool all over it! ;-) It is incredibly well done (even when it repeats itself in sections), and the pictures and "back stories" are truly exciting.

One thing that we each need to ask ourselves on a daily basis .. What do I want to see in the world of Tarot, and how can I help to make that happen?

Blessings,
Bonnie
 

RiccardoLS

Things are changing indeed.
Just slowly. Even the small part we are playing here is a little step in that direction. ^^

As for my opinion on the book... I worked so much on it that I both hate and love it.
I think it is something new... it is one of the first book on "meta-Tarot".
It is also an anniversary book, and sometimes irritatingly self-celebrative.
(and then there is a single chapter I don't really think has any reason to exist).

I liked the fact that the book had been trying to address the molteplicity of the Tarot world.
 

Bonnie

Riccardo:

That this book is prompting such wonderful responses shows that it is doing what it was meant to do: to celebrate a special anniversiary for a publishing company that has a firm place in the Tarot world, give the Tarot public a peek into the backstory of both decks that have been published, those that never made it, and ... those that might make it.

It is a gift ... a thought provoking gift. :)

I think in any project that one becomes involved in ... whether it is done in conjunction with others, or a solo project, to get it to market there are parts that we would rather not see there. ;-)

Blessings,
Bonnie
 

rwcarter

RiccardoLS said:
If I were to read this thread and this thread only, I would say that the Serio Marseille will be an incredible success, with almost a 100% appreciation rate. However, all considered, in LS we have received just three mails regarding the deck.
I'm somewhat shocked :!: that of all the people who've exclaimed about the Serio TdM in this thread, that only two people other than me took the time to email Lo Scarabeo! :( (And, yes, I'm assuming the other two emails were from people here at AT....)

RiccardoLS said:
I'm not making an excuse out of it... I'm not saying that unless LS can do tons of money, a deck should not be done. But decks that are a going to cost more than they gain have to be carefully balanced.
I must admit that we would prefer to consider some experimental "new" deck, in this direction, rather than a new take on same old. And yet we could be open.
I understand the financial aspects of publishing new tarot decks. LoS is in business to make money. And a deck that obviously won't provide a reasonable ROI is a deck that shouldn't/won't be published. But if/when I win the Lotto, I'll be contacting LoS about putting up the money to make sure this deck DOES get published. ;)

RiccardoLS said:
We want Andrea Serio make a new Tarot deck (and then more) and the TdM would be the best way to make sure he will never do another.
And that would be a shame. Movie stars have to have a track record of hit films behind them before they can get their pet "indie" film made. Movie stars who have a record of financially mediocre films under their belt don't get to get their pet project made. Although we may feel differently, Andrea Serio's work hasn't been a blockbuster seller. After a couple of blockbuster decks, a Serio TdM might be able to make the cut. So Riccardo and LoS, please, please, please, please, please, please (think James Brown) line up a couple of blockbuster projects for Andrea so that we can see his TdM in the next decade!

RiccardoLS said:
I could have given a more "company-wise" answer... so full of promise and vague.
I, for one, appreciate your honesty and the fact that you didn't sugarcoat the reality of the situation for us.

RiccardoLS said:
The only answer I can give is "not today, maybe tomorrow".
We - all of us - need decks that are something special.
But none of those decks will ever be on the bestseller list. :((
At least that wasn't a "no way in hell"! Hope springs eternal....

RiccardoLS said:
Regarding the multilingual decks... again while I see a definite opinion here on Aeclectis it does not reflect on sales. Quite the opposite.
While I'm not overly fond of the multilingual titles, I don't hate them either. Again, I understand from the financial standpoint the benefits of making one deck in 6 languages vs making 6 versions of the deck in one language each.

Thank you Riccardo for your additional insights and input. I'm glad you participate in these threads when you can.

Rodney
 

stella01904

RiccardoLS said:
The Marseille
The main market of Marseille buyers is quite different from the scholars I find here on Aeclectic. The Marseille sells very well in Mediterrean Europe, but it is mostly appreciated by a very conservative public. Rather then exploring the Marseille, most of people simply don't know that there other Tarot decks or what to do with them (I'm being simplicistic of course).
A product like the eventual Serio Marseille would not be received well by the market. It would require a refinement of taste You have but it would not reflect on enough sales.
here You may feel the voice of Marseille purist. But even the most "purist" would be drawn (even if in a negative way) to the deck. Even expressing his dislike for the project, he would aknowledge its existance.
The main market would not even notice it, among the many and many Marseille decks around.

Whether it would sell or not, I can't say. Marketing is not my forte. But it's not a Tarot de Marseille, it's a deck BASED on the TdM. The details that make a TdM have been done away with, it was not produced in Marseille, there is no basis to call it a TdM.

Calling it a TdM is what would rightly cheese off the "purists". Not the deck itself.

Which is moot, I know, since the deck's not happening, anyway. Just felt like tossing out the two cents and pointing that out.
We have found however that Andrea's art does not help sales. On the contrary. It adds a layer of complexity, a sublety of emotional responses, that seems to intimidate the casual buyer.
The art's not bad. It reminds me of those early 20th century paintings of laborers with hammers and the like - can't recall names right now, but that kind of style. Familiar - the murals you see in post offices. I can't imagine anyone being intimidated.
The market show preference for nice and easy - plug and play - takes.
Ick.
Working Marseille with Andrea's art would be making an ultra-elitist deck.
Right now... it is better to work on different possibilities. Then: maybe.
"Ultra-elitist"? :scratches head: An inoffensive TdM knockoff that is reminiscent of a post office mural?
 

gregory

stella01904 said:
But it's not a Tarot de Marseille, it's a deck BASED on the TdM. The details that make a TdM have been done away with, it was not produced in Marseille, there is no basis to call it a TdM.

Calling it a TdM is what would rightly cheese off the "purists". Not the deck itself.
Now here we come to a problem...... Because what DO you call it, to draw in the people like me, who would be interested to see what Serio had done with the TdM - which is what he would be doing - somehow "Serio's Tarot based-on-the-Marseille" would be a marketer's nightmare.

Surely the purists must realise that EVEN the TdM is alive and well and people can play with it too ? The Radiant RWS is not the RWS - but it has that as part of its name. Can we not accept that "Serio's TdM" is a valid title for his take on it ?
 

stella01904

gregory said:
Now here we come to a problem...... Because what DO you call it, to draw in the people like me, who would be interested to see what Serio had done with the TdM - which is what he would be doing - somehow "Serio's Tarot based-on-the-Marseille" would be a marketer's nightmare.

Surely the purists must realise that EVEN the TdM is alive and well and people can play with it too ? The Radiant RWS is not the RWS - but it has that as part of its name. Can we not accept that "Serio's TdM" is a valid title for his take on it ?
Nope. :D

"Serio's Classic Tarot", something along those lines, would be fine. It's not a TdM.
 

gregory

stella01904 said:
Nope. :D

"Serio's Classic Tarot", something along those lines, would be fine. It's not a TdM.
OK - how about Major Tom's ???? Is THAT ?