A Visual Diastasis Of The 5X14 Theory

Rosanne

Diastasis: seperation of bones without fracture })

http://trionfi.com/0/f/x/

This is the trionfi page that explains the 5X14 theory. I quite like it's neatness and I understand some of the 'fors and againsts' debate.
I spend a lot of time just looking at the images of cards and trying to decipher what is been said. I have spent a lot of time staring at the Visconti cards, but mostly at the PMB deck.
From a visual point of view only, I can see merit in thinking that the deck may have been 14 trumps- a little differently than the trionfi page has described- but I thought I would post what I see. I have taken in to consideration that the cards were not named or numbered.
Remember this is visually only!
The People cards
These cards I call The 'Big' People. They fill the card not leaving much background room. They are larger than life if you will.They are stylistically a set- excepting the Emperor is the only one without Gloves.They all have headdresses on and have symbols of office. It is their stature that groups them, as well as that they stand sole.These are the Noun cards.
La Papesse
L'Imperatrice
L'Emperor
Le Pape
L'Ermite

The Destiny Cards
These cards are not 'sole' people cards and they are visually smaller. Even though there are more figures in them there is more background as well. I call them the 'Little' people cards. There seems to be a definite decision to scale them differently to the Big people cards. These are the Adjective cards.
Les Amants
Le Char
La Justice
La roue de Fortune
Le Judgement
That leaves the last four cards, which are the Adversary cards. Now on trionfi it says three adversary and one salvation- but I reckon stylistically you have four adversary cards and no salvation till you get judged :D These four cards I call the 'Skinny Ones'. They are sole like the people cards but each is indicating his adversary skill or weapon with actions of his hands. As a group they are different in body shape to the other two sets and stand apart visually. They are the Verb cards.
Le bateleur
Le Fou
Le Pendu
La Mort.

The six cards painted by another artist are stylistically very different and I find it hard to believe they might be replacements for loss as these cards are treasures- I can't imagine someone spilling their wine on them. Also these last four so called Bembo cards- all have the cliff edge and three have the blue hills/waves and they all look leftwards- sinister lot they are and that includes Mr Commerce with his wheeling and dealing and loaning of money.
When you play cards you need to be able to group ideas together- so the art can do that, without too much effort.
I hope you enjoy this wee thought in looking at an idea only from a visual point of view.
~Rosanne
 

Huck

Interesting point.

What do you think of the meaning of the base of II, III, IV and V ?

It repeats with the Kings and Queens, but not with Knights and Pages.
 

Rosanne

Hi Huck!
I have puzzled over this- but they are all People cards that have the stage and plinth- they are all Nouns or Names you might say. The only stand out one is the King of Coins- his stage is different, so is his plain plinth and is his Crown way too big, and his Hose is odd.Maybe he is like a joker- the Mad King? The Crowns on all of them have the appearance of being collage-like placed on after the painting bareheaded I am picking. Pages and Knights are not portraits in the sense they are doing something, and are not ready for Crowns as yet. How the 3 sets of 4 cards would fit into the game- I am not sure; but to be sure there must be a reason -it is too big a detail to ignore. What do you think? ~Rosanne
Just a thought- maybe he indicates who deals (King of Coins)
 

Huck

Hm.

Cups
King - left
Queen - front
Knight - left
Page - right

Coins
King - front
Queen - right
Knight - right
Page - (missing) (front for symmetrie ?, but ...)

Batons
King - front
Queen - front
Knight - left
Page - left

Swords
King - front
Queen - left
Knight - right
Page - front

We have one fault (a missing card), so we might have 3 solutions, how it had been.

Queens: 1 from the left, 2 to the front, 1 from the right.
That looks symmetrical

Kings: 3 to the front, 1 from the left
That looks disturbed
possible reason: The king from the left (King of Cups) had been fallen in love (Cups) or is drunk (Cups)
It's amarriage deck, so let's assume, he's fallen in love

Knigths: 2 from the right, 2 from the left
A horse is difficult to present from the front, so it's logical to have them come from the sides

Pages: one for each position, so symmetrical would be the front-position

Cups: 2 from the left, 1 to the front, 1 from the right
Disturbed, cause the King has fallen in love. If the King would be "to the front", we would have the same as:

Swords: 1 from the left, 2 to the front, 1 from the right


Batons: 2 from the front, 2 from the left
would be balanced, if
Coins: 2 from the front (missing Page = to the front) , 2 from the left

...

then we would have prearranged contradictious pairs:

Cups = Love is paired with Swords = Fight

Batons = reignment is paired with Coins = oeconomy
or
Batons = farmers is paired with Coin = merchants

...

Let's assume, that the order is taken from a dance, in which 16 persons have a predefined position, naturally ordered.

Then the dance starts ... and the King of Cups (= King of Love) starts to move, that means to leave his central position (that's why he hasn't a frontal position.

Well: It's a marriage deck.

Naturally that's just an idea, perhaps there are betters.
 

Rosanne

Good Morning Huck.
Reading about the Florentine thread and your comments about Alphonso the Magnanimous and his Fame trionfi's- and the fact I reckoned the Emperor Crowns looked like the House of Trastamara Crowns (in an exaggerated form)for the Rotheschild and Griggoneur decks- it would seem that those stages indicate roles or parts in the play. So as the cast in a drama of fame- or triumph how would the cast play its part? Was there a drama on the front lawn at Pavia with a King Priasmos type figure? For a wedding Drama? It would certainly explain the Academy of silly hats and Crowns :D Who comes on stage in what order and what Pair? Maybe the King of Coins was Francesco, gone all silly with love. Didn't know his right from his left :D A sort of 'Midsummers Night Dream' a comedy drama. Then these cards needed to be used for tarrocchi and more cards were ordered to make that possible?
It all sort of reminds me of those French Pageants that took off in France and Italy, then mostly in England and are still performed today in places like York.
~Rosanne
 

Huck

Rosanne said:
Good Morning Huck.
Reading about the Florentine thread and your comments about Alphonso the Magnanimous and his Fame trionfi's- and the fact I reckoned the Emperor Crowns looked like the House of Trastamara Crowns (in an exaggerated form)for the Rotheschild and Griggoneur decks- it would seem that those stages indicate roles or parts in the play. So as the cast in a drama of fame- or triumph how would the cast play its part? Was there a drama on the front lawn at Pavia with a King Priasmos type figure? For a wedding Drama? It would certainly explain the Academy of silly hats and Crowns :D Who comes on stage in what order and what Pair? Maybe the King of Coins was Francesco, gone all silly with love. Didn't know his right from his left :D A sort of 'Midsummers Night Dream' a comedy drama. Then these cards needed to be used for tarrocchi and more cards were ordered to make that possible?
It all sort of reminds me of those French Pageants that took off in France and Italy, then mostly in England and are still performed today in places like York.
~Rosanne

Hi Rosanne,
here is it close to midnight. But somewhere on the world is always morning, and hopefully a good one.

The Trastamara crown is ca. 1450 - 70 in far distance to become Emperor. A Spanish king was near to it in 13th century, Alfons the Wise, then long ago.

However, the current emperor was a bad and unsatisfying solution, critique was there and perhaps also ideas to create another better one to solve the ever discussed crusade problem.
I try to understand your idea: An Emperor in a Florentine deck to suggest that a King of Naples should become Emperor instead the other German Emperor. There was a Spanish Pope 1455 - 1458 and perhaps unusual ideas were thought in the flight of enthusiasm, as the initiative of Hunyadi an St. Capistranus was or seemed successful.

A general problem was naturally, that neither parts of Naples nor Spain belonged to the German Empire. The following pope, Pius II. (1458 - 1464), fought with endurance for this crusade. Venice started a war with Osmanic Empire in 1463. The pressure to do something was there, all the time.

Considering the real-politic, not much happened. The next pope collected money to make a crusade, but was happy to have the money and forgot about the crusade.

I don't know about a Trastamara or Aragon idea as a solution for the bad emperor ... never heard. However, the situation and confusion after the fall of Constantinople make it possiblle, that many unusual ideas might have been thought (and never realised - or much later).

Marrying decks: Some decks, typically Milanese decks have a female on the chariot (are these intended as marriage decks ?), the Charles VI and others have a male figure on the chariot (are these decks for other "triumphal occasions" ?)

Well, we have Pulci and his Morgante as an example and as a product of its time. Funny, but also motivating to do this bloody crusade. And desribing all the time the adventure of war against the sarazens.

Pulci in Florence 1461 - 1462 and the half of the poem was ready quick, and we've this deck Charles VI in the same city somewhere between 1450 and 1480. And we have a stone-throwing-monster Morgante in this deck, as already earlier said (and likely nobody was listening):

035.jpg
 

Rosanne

Huck said:
However, the current emperor was a bad and unsatisfying solution, critique was there and perhaps also ideas to create another better one to solve the ever discussed crusade problem.
I try to understand your idea: An Emperor in a Florentine deck to suggest that a King of Naples should become Emperor instead the other German Emperor. There was a Spanish Pope 1455 - 1458 and perhaps unusual ideas were thought in the flight of enthusiasm, as the initiative of Hunyadi an St. Capistranus was or seemed successful.

Thanks Huck- that is exactly what I was getting at! I was listening about Morgante and the Bloody Crusade I never heard of a Pope giving back money anyways! Likely this was a description of the first commercial advertising for a mass market product- a war! But I was thinking of Marriage chest depictions really[cassones] :D Virgil more than Pulchi in fact. ~Rosanne
 

Rosanne

http://translate.google.com/transla...channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N

There are the cassone paintings ( marriage chests) 11th section down click on Bibliotec Riccard... and see some of the 88 miniatures- especially the hermit like dressed person on his knees. Who is this Hermit/Time?
 

Huck

Rosanne said:
Thanks Huck- that is exactly what I was getting at! I was listening about Morgante and the Bloody Crusade I never heard of a Pope giving back money anyways! Likely this was a description of the first commercial advertising for a mass market product- a war! But I was thinking of Marriage chest depictions really[cassones] :D Virgil more than Pulchi in fact. ~Rosanne

Marriage chests are fine ... at least one needs not to discuss, if they were for a marriage or not.
But your technical link doesn't work. No page for this address.