Cults, mind games and brainwashing

[Milfoil]

I've been wondering where do we draw the line between a legitimate belief and giving our power away to someone elses 'truth'?

I've always worked on the theory that if it works experientially the belief would be sound, ie, lets say in meditation or deep prayer, one has an experience which one perceives as a message and the portent of that message is borne out in life experiences thereafer.

Blind faith without personal experience, accepting someone elses word or the contents of a book, however compelling, without question or 'needing' to feel accepted within a framework in order to give ones life meaning are not good reasons (to me) to follow someone elses spiritual path.

But then I thought, if I was directed by an inner experience or external messages to follow a certain path - that would be both experiential AND following someone elses ideas.

So how do we guard against being brainwashed or falling into the 'cult' mindset?

Many things appear wholesome and founded in the best intent yet when looked at from an outside perspective, by those who do not share or need the message contained therein, these same courses or ideas are clearly manipulative.

Some are a dead giveaway or seemingly so. Scientology for example, yet if they are SO obvious, why do people join?

I guess what I am asking is how we, each of us personally, quantify what we will and will not accept on a spiritual journey? When does a great idea become a mind game?

If we are searching for answers, which many of us are, are we all aware of the pitfalls or do we check in our brains at the door of the new-found system?

 

[Apollonia]

These are very good questions. I think getting sold on something is the same whether what someone's trying to sell you is a breakfast cereal, a plastic surgeon, a politician, or a belief system--on a certain level, it's all just slightly different forms of advertising. I use the same vetting tools for everything I'm told--my brain, my gut, and my guides. If I'm being told to believe something on a spiritual level, I check it out on my own, just as I would check out anything else someone is trying to sell me.

And, in general, I try to follow the good advice of Arthur Weasley, to "Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it keeps its brain." If you don't know who the head of an organization is, or you can't see how they live out their principles in the real world, don't take what they are saying as gospel.

This may not be a popular opinion, but I feel that anyone who takes in a belief system lock stock and barrel as their own without some serious examination is either lazy, or substitutes emotions for thought. I don't really care what one's beliefs are, but I feel there should be better reasons behind adhering to them than, "It's what I was raised in," or "Movie stars believe it."

 

[Demon Goddess]

I've been wondering where do we draw the line between a legitimate belief and giving our power away to someone elses 'truth'?

I've always worked on the theory that if it works experientially the belief would be sound, ie, lets say in meditation or deep prayer, one has an experience which one perceives as a message and the portent of that message is borne out in life experiences thereafer.

Blind faith without personal experience, accepting someone elses word or the contents of a book, however compelling, without question or 'needing' to feel accepted within a framework in order to give ones life meaning are not good reasons (to me) to follow someone elses spiritual path.

But then I thought, if I was directed by an inner experience or external messages to follow a certain path - that would be both experiential AND following someone elses ideas.

So how do we guard against being brainwashed or falling into the 'cult' mindset?

Many things appear wholesome and founded in the best intent yet when looked at from an outside perspective, by those who do not share or need the message contained therein, these same courses or ideas are clearly manipulative.

Some are a dead giveaway or seemingly so. Scientology for example, yet if they are SO obvious, why do people join?

I guess what I am asking is how we, each of us personally, quantify what we will and will not accept on a spiritual journey? When does a great idea become a mind game?

If we are searching for answers, which many of us are, are we all aware of the pitfalls or do we check in our brains at the door of the new-found system?

I think that one of the most important things that one can do is ask themselves if its right. Even if it is a cult for you or I, for them, its going to be what's right for them at the time. No matter how we feel about it.

I can only go by what I personally know. I think it's obvious to anyone who talks to me for any length of time, that I am a very intensely thinking sort of a person. Not the sort to blindly get suckered into what another human being tells me.

But, when I read something, hear something, see something that rings truth in both my heart and my head at the same time, then I know I'm onto something.

Fwiw, my Unitarian background knows to examine and decipher and figure out what is true and right and reject what isn't and if it doesn't ring those two bells for me, I automatically reject it. For example; there is a lot of great knowledge in the Bible, stuff that rings a resounding bell in both my head and my heart at the same time.

Things like:

G-d being of no particular gender
Jesus is the way, the truth and the light... (although until recently, I couldn't reconcile the bell ringing with the reality of what I know about the Christian theologies).
Jesus' teachings were important, even if he the man wasn't.

I also know that certain stuff in there is just wrong because it rings that way in both my head and my heart

Things like:
G-d hates witches and homosexuals and wants them dead.
Jesus trashed the market vendors in the temple
Revelations most if not all of it.

I figure if your entire BEING - your head and your heart, tells you it's so, then regardless of what anyone else thinks of it... It's right. If you want to protect yourself ask your head and your heart at the same time... Is this right? and you'll have your answer.

 

[starrystarrynight]

I think that cult-thinking allows only for having faith in all the ideas it (the cult) espouses.

As an individual, I think each of us (in order not to fall under the "spell" of any one cult's belief system) has to take and ponder singular tenets of a wide variety of teachings...find what works for us, as individuals, and discard the rest.

I think you can (and must) still have faith in things you may not be able to see or experience first-hand, but you must be able to choose those things you want to throw your faith behind and believe.

 

[brujaja]

I once had a teacher who taught that a theory (in this case, a belief) has to do more than just "work," for many things can be made to work within the confines of their own circular logic. More than work -- inspire, grow consciousness, ring with truth -- it must work for what one aims to do. Belief as tool, utilized with conscious intent, not as comforting end point.

the line between a legitimate belief and giving our power away to someone elses 'truth'?

So legitimate means responsible for one's own power...and, I would add, allowing for others' same self-responsibility. No coercion.

I have a friend who I often feel is brainwashed...there is absolutely no talking to him except on terms of his own beliefs. At least, though, we've found a phrase for communicating when I feel this happening too strongly. We call it "getting lost in the story," losing not his experiential reality but our shared/consensual reality. Sometimes I'm willing to go there with him, sometimes not, but he's stopped making the gesture.

Two interesting facts:

POWs who have strong, rock-solid belief systems (God, Country, etc.) tend to be FAR less susceptible to brainwashing techniques.

The term "brainwashing" was a perverse political Chinese invention: (from wiki) "the term punned on the Taoist custom of "cleansing/washing the heart" (洗心 xǐ xīn) prior to conducting certain ceremonies or entering certain holy places." I like to think of heartwashing, sometimes, as a personal antidote when I'm feeling a bit brainwashed myself.

 

[re-pete-a]

Something to believe in , just may be ones desire to be accepted by self and others. When one has enough personal power then others ideas are looked at ,accepted or rejected .As a matter of fact ALL IDEAS are examined looking for that certain way that will help each accept the self that is longing for self acceptance. So something that enhances that idea is examined, the personal power developer. The room to grow. Something like this site that was mentioned on another thread , check the left side bar and click creative illness, a very interesting way to look a problem. sacredencounters.com/

 

[Always Wondering]

For me there was a "line" inside. I'm not afraid to ask for help and have had much assistance in my life and it always worked for me. In my thirties I had a spiritual teacher I love and respect. And I did risk and trust her, and learned so much more than I would have without her.

I don't like being pushed and I know when I am pushed and she did occasionally push me. Sometimes I needed pushing. But then she started on a subject, opposite of the support I sought from her, and that was it. I had to break it off. I understood her thinking, and her caring, but I had a limit and we had reached it.

Maybe I could have said "listen, this is how I feel on the subject", and given her a chance to respect that. But I felt that her view would undermine both of us. I love her and miss her to this day.

I went through a very rough time not long after and in the midst of great confusion and fear, just knew, knew, knew, that it was something that I had to face with my own intuition and strength, no advice from anyone.

Over a three year period I went deep inside and got rid of everything I had learned that didn't work for me and clung to the things that did. Some of those were the things she taught me, some of them I discovered on my own. It was the most amazing and frightening experience of self discovery.

I am glad I did it on my own, with little outside influence. I know who I am now, strengths, hopes, fears, and weaknesses. And I know the life I have now is exactly what I made, my choices, my consequences. What works for me, what doesn't. I feel so much stronger for it.

The most important she taught me was to trust my intuition. I did, and it worked. I think if someone came along and told me, even in some subtle way, to ignore it I wouldn't listen to another word they said.


AW

 

[Chronata]

And, in general, I try to follow the good advice of Arthur Weasley, to "Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it keeps its brain."

If you don't know who the head of an organization is, or you can't see how they live out their principles in the real world, don't take what they are saying as gospel.

This is really brilliant advice! Thanks Apollonia!

 

[memries]

I hold to certain precepts that I know to be true. Head and heart and what I have been shown existentially. I know what I know.

I am an avid reader and will read anything and everything but if I am reading a spiritual type text and they write one thing I know is wrong then if I continue I am constantly aware and assessing everything they write.
Sometimes a whole book is based on what I perceive to be an incorrect precept. Then it is a waste of time.

Part of what we use is the gift of discernment in knowing. Everyone who is seeking their own path is probably an original.

 

[Nevada]

I think that cult-thinking allows only for having faith in all the ideas it (the cult) espouses.

As an individual, I think each of us (in order not to fall under the "spell" of any one cult's belief system) has to take and ponder singular tenets of a wide variety of teachings...find what works for us, as individuals, and discard the rest.

I think you can (and must) still have faith in things you may not be able to see or experience first-hand, but you must be able to choose those things you want to throw your faith behind and believe.

This all makes a lot of sense to me.

I've thought a lot about cults during my adulthood. Vincent Bugliosi came to speak at a community college I attended, way back when, and ever since, I've wondered from time to time what draws people into cults. If you're not familiar with the case, Vincent Bugliosi was the prosecutor on the "Manson Family" (Charles Manson) murder conspiracy -- which I think of as a cult, based on what I know of it. The story goes that Manson wanted to bring about Armageddon by starting a massive race war -- murdering rich white people and making it appear it was done by blacks. This was right at the wind-down of the Civil Rights Movement, so maybe it seemed plausible to his sick mind. I don't know. But because of that basis in religion -- the whole religious war thing -- I think of his group as a cult.

Months after hearing Bugliosi speak, I joined a church which I learned, to my surprise and shock at the time, that some people thought of as a cult. It's true there was strong dogmatism, and an entire social structure that pretty much sucked me in as a young person who wanted to belong. (If you're wondering, it was the LDS church.) But it wasn't harmful to me, in fact I learned a lot from it, and eventually I knew it was time to leave and went my way. I don't, by the way, think of that church as a cult. But I guess I can also see why some people do see it that way. It's one of the churches that comes close, in my opinion. And for some people maybe it plays out that way, if they have trouble making choices for themselves.

I lost a good friend when I joined that church, because she thought it was EVIL and wrong, and gave me pamphlets to read telling me how very wrong and evil it was. (This all came about because I invited her to my baptism, thinking that she, as a Christian, would be delighted I was joining a church.) She didn't convince me to back off, and I really thought her insistence was a bit much. But she said she couldn't be my friend if I joined, so that was it. I've sometimes wondered, and still do, if she hadn't been sucked into a cult-like mindset about it by her own church.

I also lost friends when I left that church a few years later, people who couldn't apparently face that my beliefs could change or that I could really think that wasn't the right place for me.

I've grieved those friendships -- all of them -- much more than I grieved either joining or leaving that church, and the experience has left me leery of and confused about friendship ever since. I'm a naturally introverted and shy person, and it has never been easy for me to make friends.

This all still leaves me wondering not just what a friend is, but also, of course, what a cult is. From time to time I go over my personal definition of "cult".

Something Bugliosi said all those years ago stuck with me, about the members of the Manson Family being young people who desperately needed to belong to something they considered important. Now most of us think that seems like a reason to join the Peace Corps, but not to join a cult, especially one that tells you to go out and murder people to start a holy war. But what if you're the sort of person who's been pushed away from one social group after another all your life, you don't feel as if you fit in anywhere, and suddenly there's this charismatic or hypnotic leader telling you he has all the answers, he loves you, and you do indeed fit right in and can help with this oh-so-important THING (mission or task) he wants to do?

I have a feeling this is not only what gets people onto the brink of joining a cult, if they're unlucky enough to run into the right one at the right time in their lives, but into terrorism, murder conspiracies, pyramid schemes, or other forms of trouble as well -- even just lose a lot of money. Yes, I think there's a lot of hard selling that goes on, too, and people (the cult leaders) who know how to use all the advertising ploys and hit the right emotional buttons.

But I still don't know the definitive answer to the question, "What is a cult?" So I'm even further from the answer to how we can avoid them sucking people in and convincing them to do horrible things.

But I think it is something that deserves a lot of thought by everyone, especially before we commit to joining any tight, evangelical, or dogmatic group, or listen to any person or group that claims to have all the answers.

No one person in this world, I don't care if they claim to be the Second Coming of Christ, the Buddha, or a superior alien sent to save the planet, has all the answers. As soon as someone says they do, I turn in the other direction.

But how do you tell young people who are susceptible to being sucked in how to avoid this? It's in a sense almost like falling in love. Good luck telling an eighteen year old their boyfriend or girlfriend is just feeding them a line.

Nevada