elemental associations for the courts

[Mellifluous]

To me,

pages are air (full of ideas, with still more to learn)
knights are fire (full of enthusiam and energy for trying out their ideas)
queens are water (emotions, intuition, true understanding, wisdom)
kings are earth (solidity, stability, mastery of the practicalities of their suit)

I suppose I got this from a book at one point. Don't know which one. It's held true for me all these years though.

 

[Rosanne]

Someone gave me this explanation that I like very much
Pages represent the grounded instincts for their respective suit. So Pages are Earth= the senses/material/Physical
Page of Wands is Earth of Fire : Senses modifying will
Page of Cups is Earth of Water : Senses modifying emotions
Page of Swords is Earth of Air : Senses modifying intellect
Page of Coins is Earth of Earth : Senses reinforcing senses

~Rosanne

 

[firecatpickles]

I would disagree with this, though some authors do not (e.g Wang). IMO The guy on horse is Fire, doesn't matter if he is called Knight or King or something else. The guy on Chariot or Throne is Air, as he takes on some qualities of the Queen and the Knight/King/horse-guy who are his parents. The signs of astrology as drawn on the RWS also make this clear.

The Hebrew word for air is hashamayim and is created by combining the words for fire, haesh, and water, hamayim. Using your logic, combining the Kingly-fire and Queenly-water elements would then create Knightly-air.

 

[frelkins]

This is the only time I will be quoting Crowley: Do as thou wilt is the whole of the law. Whatever the heck makes sense to you, do it. Hebrew, astrology, intuition, horses' manes like flames in the wind, whatever. . .

 

[Grigori]

The Hebrew word for air is hashamayim and is created by combining the words for fire, haesh, and water, hamayim. Using your logic, combining the Kingly-fire and Queenly-water elements would then create Knightly-air.

No, we are having different conversations I think.

Combining Kingly-fire and Queenly-water does create Air, but the system I'm referencing is the GD one, and in that system the Knight on horseback is the King-Fire. So Kingly-Fire plus Queenly-Water = Princely-Air. Never Knightly-air as such as thing does not exist in that method.

It really boils down to what you think Waite's intention was with the RWS deck, as to how/if you want to make the courts equivalent.

The earlier decks, Marseille etc. has the Courts King (throned), Queen, Knight (Horse) and Page.
The GD changed this for qabalistic reasons, and created the heirarchy King (on horseback, sometimes known as Knight thanks to Crowley), Queen, Prince (in a Chariot) and Princess. Following the pattern Fire, Water, Air, Earth, as in the tetragrammaton,

Waite went back to the Marseille structure, presuamably as the GD court system was still an esoteric secret at the time. So making his deck equivalent to the Thoth or GD courts is an inexact science as it was deliberately obscurred.

To my way of thinking, it is clear the RWS Kings have the astrological attributions of the GD Princes and so they are equivalent. These are the Fixed signs of the Zodiac, and so rule from Tipareth and can be nothing but Air which belongs to that Sephira as the "Son". The RWS Knights have the same core features of the GD Kings, so they are equivalent and must be Fire, hence the Mutable signs and the 2nd Sephira for the "Father".

But in the end it all boils down to personal preference, and in what manner your applying the information. We are trying to make 4 different court systems line up exactly, which is an unlikely goal. This is my way, and in my way the RWS Knights are the Father (Fire), the RWS Kings the Son (Air). This freaks people out as every RWS book you read presents the courts in the Marseille order. Doesn't bother me though.

I'm not trying to convince anyone else they are wrong, or should change their method. In the end I don't think it matters a jot which method you use, pick the one you like. But I am trying to say to jumaja28 that there are valid reasons to use the system your familar with, so don't go changing on anyone elses account.

 

[Grigori]

I found a quote from Waite I wanted to include in my argument, as to considering the RWS Knight as the Fire/Father and the King as the Air/Son.

A Knight should be chosen as the Significator if the subject of inquiry is a man of forty years old and upwards; a King should be chosen for any male who is under that age; a Queen for a woman who is over forty years; and a Page for any female of less age

Waite give contradictory guidance elsewhere in the Pictorial Key, so this is not the only possibility even as far as Waite is concerned. But it is one way to look at it, and I think it gives weight to the argument of making the RWS Knight = GD King, the RWS King = GD Prince, Queen = Queen, and interestingly the male RWS Page = female GD Princess.

 

[jumaja28]

Well, I wanted answers, and suddenly they came pouring in! Thank you all for your input. I think I have a basic understanding of the GD-type associations... and I think I'll probably continue to ignore them. Honestly, they don't seem to apply toward my use of the tarot... right now.

I've really enjoyed reading other weirdos' non-standard combinations. I've seen some interesting ones to consider.

Some decks make a determination for the reader, but most don't seem to depict more than one element for each court. I like this, as it leaves things nice and open. Just like I like my tarot.

Hey, where did all the ceremonialists go?

 

[firecatpickles]

This is the only time I will be quoting Crowley: Do as thou wilt is the whole of the law. Whatever the heck makes sense to you, do it. Hebrew, astrology, intuition, horses' manes like flames in the wind, whatever. . .

With all due respect, I believe this is exactly why we engage ourselves in conversation, to get different ideas and opinions out there, not to simply say "whatever" which you seem to be saying here.

 

[Storm82]

Well, I wanted answers, and suddenly they came pouring in! Thank you all for your input. I think I have a basic understanding of the GD-type associations... and I think I'll probably continue to ignore them. Honestly, they don't seem to apply toward my use of the tarot... right now.

I've really enjoyed reading other weirdos' non-standard combinations. I've seen some interesting ones to consider.

Some decks make a determination for the reader, but most don't seem to depict more than one element for each court. I like this, as it leaves things nice and open. Just like I like my tarot.

Hey, where did all the ceremonialists go?

I really recomend the Book of Thoth by Crowley