How to help / learn about someone who doesn't want help

[dawntarot]

OFF TOPIC, skip this bit, people who want to stick to tarot: SORRY!



Like most people over here, I can't understand the arguments *against* a national health service. I personally will never be able to move to the States, because I need insulin; even if I could afford it, I'd say it is discriminatory to make me pay for it or for insurance (which I gather I couldn't get anyway) instead of taking my kids on holiday, or for some families, feeding them ... Seems a no-brainer to me, free at point of need - you have emergency departments turning away emergencies for financial reasons, WOT?

Obviously our NHS isn't perfect and that's partly because it limps along next to the private sector and has been underfunded for several governments... partly because local authorities vary so much in funding - this county's mental health services are one of the worst. Partly for lots of other, complicated reasons. The wealthy have no incentive to improve the NHS, coz they go private (and we're not exactly poor in this family, but far from having that option).

Please do vote for your NHS!

... Peace friend!
Hey, I never talk politics!!!

END OF OFF TOPIC BIT, thanx folks for putting up with that. I'll shut up now. I didn't want to take the off-topic bit to PM as then it would seem personal, which is isn't.

mm

agreed, a thousand times over.

 

[nisaba]

All of that being said, you just can't help someone who really doesn't want help. All you will do it drain yourself, and make your own life more difficult, without improving theirs one iota. There is no gain, and a definite loss. Do you want losses in your life?

 

[ilweran]

What I said to Bhavana about going private - and I know exactly what there is for free around here, zilch. Anyway he needs more than counselling, this is not simple depression, we think depression or maybe bipolar, with something else in the mix that's confusing the issue.

I was thinking a counsellor could help tide him over until he could see a psychiatrist - it could possibly help with the self harm and possible dissociation he's experiencing. You don't have local Mind group or anything that might run free or subsidised counselling? Though I know even if there was it may not be local enough to easily get to, but they might be able to provide counselling by telephone. Carrying on with that thought, there may be organisations not based in your area but whose services cover it who may be able to do something by phone.

Sorry this is off topic, but your post put me into 'work mode' a bit as part of my job is sign posting people to mental health related services.

Take care

 

[Grizabella]

I have once or twice done questions like 'How can I support G?' hoping that this counts as not *about* him, but not sure I'm satisfying my own moral standards here. They're questions for and about myself, but am I really sticking to his rule? In a 'letter of the law, but not spirit of the law' kind of way? I'm hoping to clarify what I feel, if some of you share their own views on this and how you reach those views. (Please ...)

This is why it's so silly when people say they won't read about "third parties". We all have people in our lives. We don't live in a vacuum. You can't read the cards without it involving something about someone other than yourself, even if only in a small way. I wouldn't worry so much about that. Do readings as you see fit and don't worry that you're doing something wrong to ask the cards for advice about your son.

 

[lilangel09]

I don't see "How can I support G?" as a third party reading because you are not trying to read his mind or anything. You are asking what you can do, so it is about you and your actions, not him.

As for depression or any other problem, it is very hard to help anyone who doesn't want it. All you can do is support him and try to lighten things up every once in awhile (things to live for), and hopefully he will find his way and find his own will or desire to overcome instead of indulging in feelings of anger and/or hopelessness. Also, you might suggest that he learn about something he is interested in. It tends to give some joy or purpose.

 

[Grizabella]

I don't see "How can I support G?" as a third party reading because you are not trying to read his mind or anything. You are asking what you can do, so it is about you and your actions, not him.

That's right. It's asking how you can help him. I'm not sure he'd consider it not about him, though. What I forgot to say in my post is this---you said he's told you not to read for or about him, so that does make it a little bit different. I can see that it would be hard to decide whether asking that question would overstep the lines of his promise to you.

 

[Milfoil]

You know G better than anyone I would guess, but parents are often the last ones that kids of that age will take help or advice from and that is normal, they are meant to leave home and make lives of their own so it's not your fault that he doesn't feel you can help him. Sometimes, however, it is our right and duty as parents to continue to look out for our kids even when they are adult. Just because he says he doesn't want help doesn't mean that he really doesn't. It sounds like he is crying out for help, it's just that he doesn't trust most and doesn't want help from others (parents included) so if there is nobody he believes can help him, he is forced to go it alone.

If this were my son, of course I would do a reading around him. It's not prying into his private life, it is a matter of life and death. To hell with all normal or usual sense of propriety, my personal ethical code takes me beyond that day to day stuff and requires of me that I do what is best for him even if that means calling the police about his crime or some other similar action. The tarot isn't going to tell you how many girlfriends he has, what his sexual preference are or his deepest, darkest secrets, it will indicate what is best for him and you because that is really what is on your mind.

The mumbo-mumbo tosh is exactly that to him if it never helps. Sometimes what is needed is proof that it does work or that the person who follows that path is also deeply grounded and very worldly-wise. If this were my son, I would be facing him with the fact that his personal life is very much his own, I have no interest in going there but when his behaviour overlaps into my life, causing problems, stress, pain and suffering for those around him then I have every right as a parent to take any steps reasonably necessary to ensure both his well-being and my own.

I have had to do this with one of my own boys (who are both in their 20s now) and picking the right time was crucial.

Good luck with your beloved G but never let blind adherence to normal ethics inform abnormal situations.

 

[MandMaud]

I'm sorry not to get back to this sooner. It is really heart-warming to get this much moral support.

I should have made clear that the help G refuses isn't *any* help, it was a misleading title for the thread, just that I asked him before reading the cards about him and he said no - we didn't get as far as why, but his tiny experience of healing (sampled shiatsu and cranio a few years ago) put him off. I suspect it made him 'feel something' which scared him - he's certainly sensitive to such like.

As for help, he really is desperate and does know it - not objecting to 'interference', just isn't someone whose natural language is verbal...

I've decided that I am all right asking what I can / should do, if there's anything I really need to know, that sort of thing, and including him when I make a position for each person that will affect the coming week, which is the way I often work. I will not sit down and ask 'What is best for G?' etc. Having these responses has helped me clarify on that, thanx

Two positive things happened the day before yesterday. G hit rock bottom emotionally - that's not the positive thing, it was scary - couldn't eat or get dressed and took some coaxing to bother lifting a coffee to his lips... Sitting down just to 'be with' ended up as an hour of grief counselling (it's not bereavement, but severe depression feels just like that (and yes, I can say that, I've tasted both)) - at one point he simply cried, and let me hold him, very cheesy-movie moment, and a HUGE relief because he hasn't been able to cry. Then in the afternoon about 4pm he came downstairs for a snack, good in itself, and I happened to be at the kitchen table luckily; he started telling me things that happen in his mind that worry him and that turned into another hour-long counselling session.

He could not see how anything was better but *I* knew he'd moved slightly past the Ten of Swords stage, for this time I mean.

The other good thing is that I got on the phone and after being bounced from wrong department to wrong department, found out that 1 to 3 years is a myth, it's more like 1 to 3 months' waiting list. Infuriating to have that frightening rumour, and baffling since it came from a psych consultant (the one that has referred to him to the 'next stage up'). WHAT a relief though.

I will follow up ilweran's suggestion about Mind etc.

And I'm physically exhausted, but have got over the emotional exhaustion of those long talks. I am so glad that I have listening training, and am a depression survivor myself (no longer identify as a depressive!), what a help both those things are now.

All sorts of other practical and physical-health and personal and even computer-glitchy things are going on in my life (all time-consuming) and my health doesn't allow that kind of mental exertion every day! But G has stayed with friends since yesterday so I've caught up a bit.

Thank you so much.
mm

 

[Siochanai]

Off topic for tarot folks

Maybe I can help a bit here since my sister is ninteen and diagnosed with sever bipolar disorder.

It is sad to hear of the long wait to see a psychologist. The question is since he is self inflicting is there a mental health hospital in tour area. My sister went through a really rough bout a few years ago and she chose to go to the er which then admitted her into a mental heath hospital for a week or so. The advantage was it gave her access to a psychologist a lot quicker ans when she came out she has the tools.and medications she needed. Now sure she still has.breakdowns but she is much more stable and has.not games herself in over a year.

Just a thought since.you said he is open for help. There are.ways in the us to get it faster.

 

[MandMaud]

Off topic for tarot folks

Maybe I can help a bit here since my sister is ninteen and diagnosed with sever bipolar disorder.

It is sad to hear of the long wait to see a psychologist. The question is since he is self inflicting is there a mental health hospital in tour area. My sister went through a really rough bout a few years ago and she chose to go to the er which then admitted her into a mental heath hospital for a week or so. The advantage was it gave her access to a psychologist a lot quicker ans when she came out she has the tools.and medications she needed. Now sure she still has.breakdowns but she is much more stable and has.not games herself in over a year.

Just a thought since.you said he is open for help. There are.ways in the us to get it faster.

Thanks Siochanai - but I think this *is* the 'quicker'. (We could go private, but I don't imagine diagnosis takes just one or two visits and I'm skilled in getting appointments brought forward, good at phoning up and 'fluttering my eyelids' to the appointments person learnt through long experience of health probs.) Thank you for sharing about your sister and I am sorry to hear you have been living with bipolar. He was an inpatient for a week in January and has been to A&e (=ER) maybe three times this year... the place he is referred to now be very thorough when they do get to him, I think. For the time being we have relaxed as he seems to be out of this latest crisis, so with luck he'll stay ok (defined as miserable, but safe!!) for the weeks he has to wait. The strongest candidate is bipolar, from my lay knowledge, but knowing us as a family(!) it will be an atypical/complicated version of it, we tend to do that with everything!

Everyone's suggestions have been good but so much is dependent on the local authority we happen to be in, the 'postcode lottery' that we've heard about on the news for every kind of treatment/outlook be it mental health, breast cancer, schools policies... nuff said.

Back to Tarot... I did a small reading this morning, letting the cards decide its topic, and I'm sure it was about G... basically said my past actions have been ok - at least I took a 2 of Cups, strong (elementally), to mean my commitment to G is correct - and basically, this is a long-term project not a quick fix (knew that already!) and to hang on in there, stay strong. If it wasn't about G it's nice if applied to anything else, but the 'Issue at hand' was a card that has been coming up in relation to him recently.