I have a pet peeve, do you?

[Sophie]

That's it, Fudugazi, though meditating on the minors can be fruitful as well.

Absolutely - and that was the point of the Golden Dawn attribution of the 10 Minors of each suit to the 10 Sephirot of each of the four Worlds.

Great points Fudugazi. I do wonder though about the attributions. Take Sun in Virgo as an example. It might add more to a reading if I want to draw on it, but I have to ask do I trust the attribution in the first place?

Surely I could get just as many intuitive insights if it had been Mars in Virgo or Mars in Leo or any other attribution? Having additional information to draw in is fine, but does it matter where that information comes from and the validity of it?

Well, in a fully intuitive system, no, I suppose not. But we are logical beings, and when studying a card - outside of readings - we need some kind of logic to a system. "Sun in Virgo"/Prudence seems to work with the idea of disks/pentacles/coins being about money, exchange and material things, balanced or materialising - (8).

Having said that, some of the astrological attributions made by the Golden Dawn seem absolutely loopy to me. The Moon in Aquarius for the 7 of Swords is a case in point. I simply don't get it.

I think this illustrates, though, how difficult it is to match different systems. There will always be some of it that works, and some that doesn't.

How do you tie in the trump cards, the major arcana with Kabbalah?

Each card corresponds to one of the 22 Hebrew letters, and to paths on the Tree of Life. There are different possible combinations, though - in the English-speaking world the Golden Dawn attributions dominate, but Levi's attributions still hold sway elsewhere, or other attributions. Each letter has an astrological attribution (planet, element or sign), given in by the Jewish Kabbalists, so that is also how astrology can fit in with the Majors.

I am still hopeful the Tarot is a stand-alone esotericism.

That is Alejandro Jodorowsky's contention. He learnt tarot initially with the Golden Dawn system, and then threw the whole thing over when he started working with the Marseille. Working closely with that deck for over 30 years, he holds that it is a perfect esoteric system in and of itself, which needs no other correspondences. He makes a good case, but he's not entirely consistent - being fond of Eastern mysticism, he frequently brings it into play in his interpretations. But he has not tried to match the systems in any Grand Plan. He is just inspired by Eastern mysticism when a card seems (to him) to call for it.

 

[Scion]

Thing to remember about Kabbalah is that it was not matched with Tarot for the purposes of divination at all, but as a magical tool first (by Levi), then later also as a focus for meditation (by the Golden Dawn)...

So in choosing to read or not with Kabbalah, Astrology, or any other non-tarot system, you don't suspend your intuition, but rather, you rely on your intuition to tell you whether for this card, in this position, at this time, tapping into your Kabbalistic or other knowledge makes sense.

I find that very much the case for any association I make with Tarot. I might quote a poem, or cross-reference a movie. I don't see that cross-referencing to Kabbalah, astrology, runes, Eastern mysticism or any other esoteric system is any different, if you remain fluid and intuitive.

As always, Wisdom, you just get right to the heart of it. Beautifully said!

All divination involves a process of finding meaning in randomized patterns. Attenpts to agree on essential basics always seem like a lumpectomy performed with a rock: possibly interesting, but hardly precise.

Intuition is an active capacity that can be trained. I would love for anyone to explain to me why using intuition is analogous to performing a frontal lobotomy that excises the meaning kicked up by your associational cortex. And of course, associations are as personal and distinct as modes of learning. I don't know how this weird Cartesian division took root in the Tarot community, but I have yet to meet an "intuitive" reader who doesn't draw on knowledge and I have yet to meet a "scholastic" reader that isn't intuitive about all that stuff rattling around the old bone box. I, too, riff on snatches of poetry, advertising, lyrics, or philosophy. Because it's a useful way of locating and articulating meaning.

The Golden Dawn was dismissive and high-minded about divination in all forms. Their assumption was that it worked not because they had "designed" a divinatory system, but rather that their system described the Immateria and therefore tapped into these patterns which underly creation. Levi was so convinced of the intrinsic beauty and power of Tarot that he found ways (and invented ways!) to connect it to everything. Again, not because of divinatory use, but because he saw it as a kind of Magical Cathedral. The underlying assumption in all of these esoteric schools is that Reality is organized in systems and that these systems are discernible by mortal eyes. Drawing on systems implemented/fabricated by any old-school esotericist is only a way for a reader to punch through to the pattern of Creation. Divin(e)ation.

This has been a great thread, but mainly because this is one of those circular discussions (Like the Ur-Tarot threads or the Crowley=scary threads) that traces the edges of all our preconceptions.

Scion

 

[The crowned one]

Sorry Fudugazi,

I had meant minor, not major. I was very tired after a double shift at 2 hospitals, and a bit "spun" I guess when I posted.

 

[Sophie]

I had meant minor, not major. I was very tired after a double shift at 2 hospitals, and a bit "spun" I guess when I posted.

In that case, the correspondence with Kabbalah works through the numbers, each of which corresponds to a Sephirot on the Tree of Life (so all Sevens correspond to Netzach, all Aces to Kether, etc.) - and the suits, each of which is attributed to one of the four Worlds. The Courts are also attributed to some of the Sephirot. You can meditate your way up the Worlds and up the Sephirot from Malkuth to Kether, using the Minors, and the Majors to bring you along the paths, until you reach - ideally - Ain Soph, the Divine No-Thing-Everything - God before He was God. When you get there, you no longer need a pack of cards

 

[The crowned one]

Hmmm I have read that, I guess at this point I just don't "feel" the relationship between the two. They seem like separate entities with some unavoidable common truths about them. Thank-you for your fine reply!

The problem might be I just do not know the Kabbalah well enough, and I am plodding through the science and history of tarot still.

 

[Jewel]

Q

I guess maybe what everyone is saying is that I've picked up a lot of it without knowing it as I've learned what I've learned. Is that what you're saying? Like mixing peas into a casserole and a little kid will eat it without knowing it?

Hiya Lyric! Great thread (mind you I was still on page 3 I think when I saw this and just had to chime in). I think that is what everyone is saying. You absorb some of it by osmosis so to speak ~giggles~.

For years I was fascinated with the Qabalah, still am actually, and numerology, and I just LOVE elemental dignities. Do you have to know all of these things to read tarot? no, like you said you read intuitively and that is perfectly OK. But for some these added systems really add depth to the reading. I think if you were to look into some of these things, you might be schocked at what you have picked up along the way.

It all depends on the type of person you are and your personal style of reading whether to use or not use these systems. But remember the RWS or CWS is a deck created by a golden dawn member while in the order, so yes there is a lot of those systems in those cards. Now go to a deck like the Fey or many of the Magic Realist decks and this stuff has pretty much been stripped out. My favorite kind of deck these days. But I still use the elemental dignities and basic numerology as I find they add depth in richness to my readings.

Different strokes for different folks. Sort of like religion. One may work for you, but not for me, but neither religion is right or wrong. They are a personal preference based on who we are and our style.

 

[Jewel]

ideally - Ain Soph, the Divine No-Thing-Everything - God before He was God. When you get there, you no longer need a pack of cards

~giggles~ but the cards are so pretty ....