Is there value in adhering to a traditional Lenormand system? If so, what is it?

[kalliope]

In another thread about Lenormand meanings, we veered off into a discussion about traditional vs. intuitive reading styles and if it's possible to dilute the traditional meanings so much that Lenormand becomes indistinguishable from any other oracle deck.

Mary posed a great question, and I hoped people would want to talk about it more:

Of course anyone can use the Lenormand deck as an oracle deck and even totally make up their own system: Mice are wonderful helpers, and Path means 'stick to the main road and don't get sidetracked,' Stars are famous celebrities, and the Moon is scary like in Tarot. It can be anything you want it to be, and [for] you it is likely that, if you are good at divining, you'll get really accurate readings out of it.

In fact, I've been on many divination panels where the panelists are each given a divination deck or tool they've never seen before and are asked to read for someone in the audience. The querents have always gotten excellent readings from the panelists. Just because we can do it, does it mean it's all we should do?

Is there any value to adhering to a traditional system? If so, what is it?

(I added the bold type)

Sometimes this topic can get tense, so I hope we can avoid descent into the typical traditionalism vs. intuition argument. I'd just like to have a great discussion about the merits, if any, of the traditional system of Lenormand reading. And of course, if you don't think there are any benefits, I'd like to hear from you, too.

 

[kalliope]

Here is my response from the original thread:

Just because we can do it, does it mean it's all we should do?

Is there any value to adhering to a traditional system? If so, what is it?

That last is such a wonderful question!!

On a personal level, I love the challenge of learning a skill that contains rules and parameters for its performance. I enjoy the idea of keeping an old tradition alive, and of feeling a connection to the readers of the past. I also think that differences between things are often the aspects of them that make them special, so I simply like the basic fact that Lenormand reading is different from other oracle reading.

But on principle, and objectively, I'm not sure what the value is. I'd love to hear others' thoughts on the matter, though, as I find these things really interesting to think about and discuss.

 

[Teheuti]

Thanks for doing this so gracefully, Kalliope!

One advantage is that if you aren't very intuitively or psychically attuned to the cards and you don't see anything in the pictures, then, by following the traditional methods you can still read a Lenormand spread with a marked degree of relevance and accuracy. And over time, as you build confidence, you will probably find yourself intuiting the kinds of connections and insights that you hadn't been able to do before.

A second advantage is that following the system eliminates a great deal of ambiguity and alternative interpretations and tends to get right to the point. In doing so, it gives the kinds of answers that people don't usually get with modern Tarot readings. For instance, it's great for finding lost objects or describing the physical characteristics of a person.

A third advantage is that other people who use the Lenormand system are likely to come up with very similar interpretations. Where you might have overlooked something, another person's interpretation (in a study group, for instance) may fill in the gap, and it will make perfect sense and you can understand what you overlooked. This helps you to hone and refine your reading skills.

 

[Nickigirl]

To me, if you don't learn to read the Lenormand in the traditional way, then you're not so much reading the Lenormand as reading an oracle using the Lenormand deck.

The benefit of learning to read in the traditional ways is that we can then pass down these traditional methods for future generations.

 

[Tag_jorrit]

One advantage is that if you aren't very intuitively or psychically attuned to the cards and you don't see anything in the pictures, then, by following the traditional methods you can still read a Lenormand spread with a marked degree of relevance and accuracy. And over time, as you build confidence, you will probably find yourself intuiting the kinds of connections and insights that you hadn't been able to do before.

Absolutely.

Lenormand cards have been described as a language. Each card has a specific set of meanings that can apply to a range of questions. The traditional meanings and methods provide answers and insights that are clear and to the point.

My question to people who want to pick up Lenormand cards and not read by the traditional meanings and methods is, why bother with Lenormand cards in the first place? If you want to read Lenormand cards in a non-traditional way and want to 'talk' Lenormand with others who are reading Lenormand cards in the traditional way you may as well be 'talking' Swahili because you will not be speaking the same language.

It's like using English words and making up new meanings for the words that all the English speakers use. You can do it but it doesn't make any sense.

 

[DownUnderNZer]

I think it is good to know the traditional system and the card meanings of each card plus the GT as it forms a base, or a basis, or a foundation and teaches you a way to read the cards in a structured way.

I deeply respect the two ladies that taught me with no books and English as their 2nd language and when I do resort back to it (need to more as hardly do nowadays) I don't cross or mix boundaries and have to remember the 5 cards (?) that are different to the "no layout" system.

But because of knowing the cards first and using the GT it made it a lot easier for me to cross over into something that was even more specific for answering questions (direct questions and angles to those questions) without interfering with the traditional way. It was what gave me what I needed to experiment more and to try different things out as I knew the basics of each card and how to work them together in pairs or a square e.t.c, so I didn't lose that knowledge yet was able to use it in a adapted manner suitable for what I was looking for when it came to reading.

TIP: Must stay with the question and not side track with the different meanings cards can have as once you do that it becomes muddled and confusing for both the sitter and reader.

The traditional method gives a solid foundation as I see it.

 

[ana luisa]

I think it is good to know the traditional system and the card meanings of each card plus the GT as it forms a base, or a basis, or a foundation and teaches you a way to read the cards in a structured way.

Agreed. If you did not have a common denominator with which to work , then, exchange of information among people of different countries, languages and backgrounds would be impossible. It is like English, in a way. It is the tool used by people to communicate and transmit their ideas all over the world. It is a wonderful and established starting point. However, and also because of this diversity of readers, we cannot just stop at the original meanings and get bound by it. They are tools, not a straightjacket. More so because the symbols used may have different meanings for people coming from diverse backgrounds. I know that to me, the book means so much more than a secret. It can mean knowledge, memories, etc.
Thanks kalliope for opening this new thread

 

[Teheuti]

I think that most modern readers have expanded Book to mean knowledge and literal books and, in combination, to indicate schooling, etc. It still all revolves around the original concept of a "grimoire" (Spiel der Hoffnüng) as a compendium of secret or hidden knowledge. Even today, the writings in a specific field of knowledge are like a secret language to the rest of us.

The problem comes when 1) the original meaning is totally ignored, and 2) personal associations take primacy whenever you see the card: Book means 'placing a bet' or 'thinking you know more than everyone else,' or 'it's saying you have to go back to school'.

The Lenormand deck itself is Book, in that it's written in a secret language, that cannot be fully understood until you have learned its mysteries.

 

[Lee]

The problem comes when 1) the original meaning is totally ignored, and 2) personal associations take primacy whenever you see the card: Book means 'placing a bet' or 'thinking you know more than everyone else,' or 'it's saying you have to go back to school'.

Mary, I realize you've said earlier that you feel that traditional meanings, even among different traditions, are still similar enough so that practitioners will understand each other's interpretations. But in order for this thread to be meaningful, I'm wondering if we need to define more precisely what particular sets of meanings would qualify as traditional. The Treppner course, for example, includes among the meanings for Book, "education," "training," "re-education," and "seminar," which would seem to suggest that the "going back to school" interpretation wouldn't necessarily be problematical. My impression had been that Treppner is considered by many to be traditional, but I could certainly be wrong on that.

 

[kalliope]

One advantage is that if you aren't very intuitively or psychically attuned to the cards and you don't see anything in the pictures, then, by following the traditional methods you can still read a Lenormand spread with a marked degree of relevance and accuracy. And over time, as you build confidence, you will probably find yourself intuiting the kinds of connections and insights that you hadn't been able to do before.

A second advantage is that following the system eliminates a great deal of ambiguity and alternative interpretations and tends to get right to the point. In doing so, it gives the kinds of answers that people don't usually get with modern Tarot readings. For instance, it's great for finding lost objects or describing the physical characteristics of a person.

A third advantage is that other people who use the Lenormand system are likely to come up with very similar interpretations. Where you might have overlooked something, another person's interpretation (in a study group, for instance) may fill in the gap, and it will make perfect sense and you can understand what you overlooked. This helps you to hone and refine your reading skills.

Yes, I definitely agree with these points. The first is what probably attracted me to complicated, traditional divination systems in the first place: the fun idea that I could improve my accuracy if I stuck with a complex system, especially one meant for practical concerns. (I began studying playing cards, geomancy, and horary astrology for the same reason.)

The second advantage ties into the first, for me. I agree that there can be a bewildering number of perspectives in tarot -- spiritual ideas, esoteric systems, numerology, astrology, Jungian archetypes, medieval christian allegory, individual interpretations, etc. In my own practice, tarot had become quite broad and psychological, which is extremely valuable in its own way, but I sometimes wanted to be more to-the-point and less introspective. I was craving something "fortune-tellery," to be honest! But...I don't consider myself to have psychic talents of any sort.

So I liked the idea that even without incredible intuition, I could learn to see detailed things in combinations of cards. And in the end, my Lenormand reading skills have changed my tarot reading a lot, allowing me to be more practical in how I string them together.

The third advantage you list is a huge one. You only have to go to the Your Readings subforum here to see that ten readers can interpret a spread in ten different ways. The opinions can be so numerous that the original poster is almost sure to receive a reply that agrees with them, even if that's not what's most accurate or most helpful. Of course even traditional Lenormand readers will develop their own associations for card combinations, but I love the idea that they could compare notes on a reading and almost all would come to the same conclusion.