Is there value in adhering to a traditional Lenormand system? If so, what is it?

[kalliope]

To me, if you don't learn to read the Lenormand in the traditional way, then you're not so much reading the Lenormand as reading an oracle using the Lenormand deck.

Yes, I tend to see Lenormand mostly defined by its reading method, not just by the 36 card symbols, so I agree with you.

The benefit of learning to read in the traditional ways is that we can then pass down these traditional methods for future generations.

I've said the exact same thing several times, but I then I think: I guess someone could ask us why it's important to pass them down. One could argue that things change, and methods change over time, so who cares if early 19th century readers wouldn't recognize how 21st century people read the Lenormand? What is the good answer to that?

 

[kalliope]

My question to people who want to pick up Lenormand cards and not read by the traditional meanings and methods is, why bother with Lenormand cards in the first place?

My guess is that they find something attractive or evocative about the 36 symbols included in the deck and are inspired to read them as they would any other oracle. It's not too difficult for me to understand when I think of it that way.

If you want to read Lenormand cards in a non-traditional way and want to 'talk' Lenormand with others who are reading Lenormand cards in the traditional way you may as well be 'talking' Swahili because you will not be speaking the same language.

It's like using English words and making up new meanings for the words that all the English speakers use. You can do it but it doesn't make any sense.

I know what you mean. I've been thinking about it a little, and I think I have an analogy that sums up how I feel about it:

Take, for instance, the Argentinian Tango. It's an intricate dance, with very specific steps, a specific style or flair, specific body carriage, and a specific rhythm and tempo. To learn it properly, you have to learn about all of those things, and perform them in the right way. If you just move around to tango music, you may have fun, and you may look good, and you may even capture the essence of the tango mood, but you're not truly dancing the Argentinian Tango. Maybe there are people out there who dance "contemporary tango" socially, but they can't call it traditional Argentinian Tango, nor could they compete in a ballroom competition. They aren't doing the same thing. Argentinian Tango is a specific dance, defined by all of its rules and components.

Most people wouldn't argue that their own personal version of tango is Argentinian Tango, and they wouldn't be offended if you told them there is a certain way to dance it properly. Most people would agree there is value in recognizing the specificity of the dance. So I wonder why it's more difficult to defend wanting to keep the "Lenormand method" to mean what we recognize as the traditional method of reading the cards? Difficult without sounding or feeling like an old stick-in-the-mud, or being called the Lenormand Police, I mean. Or maybe it's just that I find it difficult, since in general I'm of the "read however it works for you" persuasion.

But anyhow, I like that Lenormand is a particular method, and losing its specificity would be losing everything that makes it different than other oracles. Although it's not very popular these days to be a stickler about accuracy of language, and I'll admit that part of it is my personality type (any other INTP/INXPs out there?), I think that sometimes a word or a term really just does mean one thing, and there shouldn't be anything wrong with that. Right?

 

[tarotlyn]

My own belief is 'yes' there should be a 'basic stable foundation' when first
learning the Lenormand cards. There are so many tarot readers now crossing over into the
Lenormand arena and it is quite confusing for them until they are introduced to the
'traditional' meanings and methods. Then they have something to hang on to and gain
confidence from because the traditional ways make so much sense to them. It is a place
to start from that is consistent and basic.

As for those intuitive (which I am also), it may be just a part of their makeup and they
do it automatically whether they read cards, bones, dice, pendulums, runes, astro charts,
work with numbers, etc. - It is just part of their Soul, once they have it, it is not so easily turned off.

Actually I think if a beginner will learn the 'basic traditional' meanings and methods first,
then they will find that their intuition will 'confirm' and 'back up' the traditional meanings anyway.

If we go back to it's beginning, I believe, the traditional method, was to base the meaning of
a card in a reading on how 'near to' or how 'far from' a card is to the significator.
I think Mary (Teheuti) can tell us much more about this type of original traditional reading.

In my own case of reading, I DO and LOVE using the traditional meanings and methods.
I am also able to bend some and see that the Lenormand has 'already' progressed as to
'adding' some expanded intuitional meanings, spreads, and methods. That also makes sense to me.

It is two separate worlds (traditional v/s intuitive reading styles) Luckily, I am able to use
both with great results.

However, I always recommend, to beginners, to start at the beginning with the *traditional* meanings, etc.
so that they will have a solid foundation to *build* their own ways of reading in the future, if so desired.

We do need to 'preserve' the old (traditional) and at the same time *welcome* the new...
...to use what works best for 'you.'

The progressive:
I may be guilty of having added extra cards, such as, the cat, money, work, sexual intimacy cards
to my own deck creations but frankly I was tired of hearing arguments and differences
(over certain of the cards) for their traditional meanings! Note: I still use 'traditional'
meanings for the deck meanings that I give out with each of my decks.

Personally I think this is more of whether we read using the traditional German method, or
the traditional French method...etc. and on an on with other country's claims to have the
*correct* and *original* traditional method.

I have yet come to believe which one is the actual 'real' traditional country!!!
Yes, everyone will claim that *their* traditional method is the 'correct' one, (be it German, French, etc.)

I do stress, that we need to *preserve* the traditional as soon as we figure out to everyone's
satisfaction where the real traditional methods came from.

The question for me is: *where* did the real traditional methods and meanings come from?

In summary, I WILL preserve the traditional meanings (when I am more sure of their origin)
and I will also welcome progress (reading intuitively) to 'coincide' 'next' to the traditional...
...and keeping them both separate but at the same time knowing they 'can' work together.

Love and Light
Lyn

 

[Richard]

Could someone please answer Lee's question concerning what traditional meanings we are talking about? If there is not a simple, direct answer to this question, then some of the supposed advantages of traditional reading are weakened.

 

[Richard]

.......The question for me is: *where* did the real traditional methods and meanings come from?.......

I tried to raise this issue in another thread, but no one would take the bait. Are the origins lost forever in the dim mists of antiquity? If so, then maybe there is no way to determine which meanings should be considered traditional. Or maybe there are several equally valid traditions, in which case how can following a single particular tradition necessarily facilitate communication between different Lenormand users? These hard questions are the interesting ones.

 

[tarotlyn]

Yes, I am waiting for that answer as well, and would love to see *real facts* as to how,
where, and when a particular traditional system came into being the *first one*. Proof in other words.

Who actually has the *original* correct traditional meanings and methods to follow? and with proof?
Show me proof please...dates, places...and something online that shows the actual dates of the
36 Lenormand cards with symbols (that we are using now) Where is the proof your particular system?

Right now, I am reading with BOTH German and French, and whatever else from other country's systems that works.
Plus with intuition as well if need be.
Love and Light
Lyn

 

[Teheuti]

Mary, I realize you've said earlier that you feel that traditional meanings, even among different traditions, are still similar enough so that practitioners will understand each other's interpretations. But in order for this thread to be meaningful, I'm wondering if we need to define more precisely what particular sets of meanings would qualify as traditional. The Treppner course, for example, includes among the meanings for Book, "education," "training," "re-education," and "seminar," which would seem to suggest that the "going back to school" interpretation wouldn't necessarily be problematical. My impression had been that Treppner is considered by many to be traditional, but I could certainly be wrong on that.

Most traditions currently include education and knowledge as a meaning for book. But, "you have to go back to school" goes far further than that. To me it seems like this would reflect a reader's personal persuasion and assumptions rather than the more neutral "education" or even training. School is usually Tower+Book. It's very easy to start sliding down the slippery slope of adding in extras where they aren't necessarily warranted by either the cards themselves or the question. Of course, in a reading everything depends on the circumstances.

 

[Teheuti]

Of course even traditional Lenormand readers will develop their own associations for card combinations, but I love the idea that they could compare notes on a reading and almost all would come to the same conclusion.

I love this, too - especially when that conclusion turns out to be right! I see this happening far more with traditional readers than with those who are just making personal associations.

However, there is VERY RARELY someone who comes in from left-field with real specifics that seemingly have little to do with the cards, and that person turns out to be EXACTLY right. Out of two years in a Lenormand Study Group I've seen it happen 2 or 3 times.

 

[tarotlyn]

Yes...of course, like coffin becoming a woman's womb... Yes I agree meanings can change
or bend with the circumstances...

Can anyone read my posts above and give me some answers?

Love and Light
Lyn

 

[kalliope]

Traditional, in my opinion, refers to the consistent, collected methods and meanings that have been passed down from reader to reader for generations.

Lee, I'd agree that education and studies fall into the traditional meaning category. As you say, Treppner includes them, and I've been studying with Britta Kienle's course and she does as well. Mary does point out that this is consistent with the secret knowledge/grimoire concept. Logical, modern expansions on the core traditional meanings are still in the traditional camp: like adding emails & telephone calls to your communication card.

Riffing on the symbolism of the image itself, though, like the personal associations in Mary's other examples (i.e. the Book meaning "someone who thinks they know more than everyone else," or "placing a bet", or Roads meaning "don't get sidetracked") are something else entirely.

LRichard, I did reply to your question about the origins of the meanings in that other thread! My take is that since the method and meanings have been consistent in the various schools of Lenormand for a very, very long time, that in itself is what makes them traditional. Traditional isn't the same as Original or First, in my opinion. Their origins may be interesting (the Game of Hope? Lenormand herself?), but they aren't necessary to understand the tradition as its been practiced for the last 100-200 years.