Le Pendu: epaulettes or fingers?

[fluffy]

Fingers?

They certainly look like fingers on the cards i have seen depicted on this thread. I know that amputation was very common punishment for thieves in arab states. Also some of the research I was doing on hanging in general suggested that amputation of the hands first then hanging was quite common in medieval europe. Alas I cannot now find the sites that stated this.

Book of 2 Samuel

"4:12: And David commanded his young men, and they slew them, and cut off their hands and their feet, and hanged them up over the pool in Hebron."

On closer inspection of the cards it seems more likely that the hands were amputated as it looks impossible for the arms to be that long that the fingers would stretch right up to hang over his shoulders.

Why are these "fingers" not on the conver version? were they different woodblocks?

Love Fluffy
xx

 

[kwaw]

I think the most likely explanation is that they are epaulets. In some decks the figure carries bags of coins. A bag or two of coins was also indicative of 'Jews', but the military aspect of the epaulets one has also to consider that italian city states hired mercenaries, who often 'betrayed' their freinds and family and 'employers's for that extra bag of gold. Their loyalty was to the money, the matieral; friendship and ideals came a poor second. This at least was the case among Italian 'city states'. The same image elsewhere, such as Germany and Northern France, was likely to be read differently.

Kwaw

 

[Fulgour]

Lucky 7 Libra

Why are these "fingers" not on the conver version?
were they different woodblocks?

By 1760 people were tired of explaining they were epaulets.

*

We have the opportunity also to view this image as a Tarot card.
"Le Pendu" is quite literally poking his head through to look beyond,
his breakthrough is the symbolic half-year point which we call Libra.

Six stubs are seen on the new-cut sapling to the left, six to the right.
Between "hangs" Le Pendu ~ now half-way through the Tarot proper,
as we've come from Aleph to Lamedh, 1 to 12, so on we'll go to "22".

Peek-a-boo! says Le Pendu... hang on to your hats, it's gonna be fun!

 

[Sophie]

I think the most likely explanation is that they are epaulets. In some decks the figure carries bags of coins. A bag or two of coins was also indicative of 'Jews', but the military aspect of the epaulets one has also to consider that italian city states hired mercenaries, who often 'betrayed' their freinds and family and 'employers's for that extra bag of gold. Their loyalty was to the money, the matieral; friendship and ideals came a poor second. This at least was the case among Italian 'city states'. The same image elsewhere, such as Germany and Northern France, was likely to be read differently.

Interesting reference to the mercenaries, thought I'm not entirely sure about referring to them as soldiers who had betrayed - betrayed whom? This might be the case if they hired themselves out to the enemies of their city (et encore! - the city itself might be divided) - most mercenaries were mountain boys and hired themselves to earn a living - for their families (and most mercenaries in the Italian wars were not Italian, they were Swiss). The traitor, in such a circumstance, is unlikely to be a mercenary, unless he had betrayed his comrades or his commander (who would also be Swiss). But they might be made scapegoats, because the world round, nobody likes mercenaries. Their commanders could be taxed with betrayal, I imagine. And the epaulettes could easily be the colourful Swiss uniform, which was quite familiar to the French as well (the King of France had several Swiss regiments up to the Revolution, and Napoleon raised some as well).

 

[Sophie]

Peek-a-boo! says Le Pendu... hang on to your hats, it's gonna be fun!

Or else...hang on! remember what went before before you go forward and start shedding the past...

 

[kwaw]

Interesting reference to the mercenaries, thought I'm not entirely sure about referring to them as soldiers who had betrayed - betrayed whom? This might be the case if they hired themselves out to the enemies of their city (et encore! - the city itself might be divided) - most mercenaries were mountain boys and hired themselves to earn a living - for their families (and most mercenaries in the Italian wars were not Italian, they were Swiss). The traitor, in such a circumstance, is unlikely to be a mercenary, unless he had betrayed his comrades or his commander (who would also be Swiss). But they might be made scapegoats, because the world round, nobody likes mercenaries. Their commanders could be taxed with betrayal, I imagine. And the epaulettes could easily be the colourful Swiss uniform, which was quite familiar to the French as well (the King of France had several Swiss regiments up to the Revolution, and Napoleon raised some as well).

"When Pope John failed to pay Sforza for his condottiere services, Sforza grew restless. Besides, he disliked serving with another commander, Paolo Orsini, so he changed sides and joined forces with King Ladislaus of Naples. This made the Pope furious and, according to Geoffrey Trease, writing in the condottiere in 1971, he commissioned a caricature of Sforza danglind by one leg like a hanged traitor."

Kaplan Vol. I p.61.

Kwaw

 

[Sophie]

"When Pope John failed to pay Sforza for his condottiere services, Sforza grew restless. Besides, he disliked serving with another commander, Paolo Orsini, so he changed sides and joined forces with King Ladislaus of Naples. This made the Pope furious and, according to Geoffrey Trease, writing in the condottiere in 1971, he commissioned a caricature of Sforza danglind by one leg like a hanged traitor."

I didn't know that! - thanks - and it makes the connection Hanged Man-Sforza even more interesting.

 

[jmd]

Again, it is not a question of there being hangings within northern Italy - or indeed upon the Visconti-Sforza decks, but rather (and perhaps for myself only) how Le Pendu, in such depiction, came to be accepted as standard outside of northern Italy.

In any case, and in terms of this thread, this probably accounts for neither epaulettes nor fingers, unless the depiction commissioned actually showed such.

 

[Diana]

Again, it is not a question of there being hangings within northern Italy - or indeed upon the Visconti-Sforza decks, but rather (and perhaps for myself only) how Le Pendu, in such depiction, came to be accepted as standard outside of northern Italy.

Not only for yourself. For me too.

Of course, his thumbs are missing if they are fingers. And if they are epaulettes, the designer is certainly trying to attract our attention to them which is strange.

The truth may lie somewhere in the middle. As if we are being thrown off track deliberately.

And the numbering is odd too (.IIX) Like we're not supposed to know which way we stand. A most curious card indeed and probably the most mysterious of them all.

 

[Sophie]

And the numbering is odd too (.IIX) Like we're not supposed to know which way we stand. A most curious card indeed and probably the most mysterious of them all.

Oh yes, and that makes it so interesting! The Hanged Man tells a hundred stories, and still does not reveal all...