Le Pendu: epaulettes or fingers?

[fluffy]

magic powers

Hi,

I am at the moment tentatively persuing a theory (which i am sure 100's of others have already thrown away due to historical evidence, which i am totally unaware of at the mo, as rubbish, but which i think is very interesting) that the marseille is the story of the merovingian bloodline through the ages. A book i have been reading had this to say "...and according to one account the tassels at the fringes of their robes were deemed to possess miraculous curative powers" also they were known as "the longhaired monarchs". Well le pendu has long hair on my version and the "fingers" could certainly be tassels so what do you think about that!!

Love

Fluffy
ps. Anyone else who thinks the marseille a secret book to the merovingian bloodline please point me in the direction of any interesting threads. xx

 

[jmd]

I know of one person persuing some research in the Visconti being a more-or-less 'hidden' presentation of descendents of the Magdelene, and therefore, if in any manner correct, it could be that the Marseille, by association, may also be thus connected (especially if one considers various claims of descent for the merovingian from the same line).

As to threads, I do not recall any offhand specifically on this - and it would be wonderful to read your overview on this (and the details also, of course).

 

[eugim]

Le Pendv

Hello everybody here...

About LE PENDV and seeing the contrats between TdM 1 and Tdm 2 Decks I feel the first group more explicit allegorical and the second more explicit real engraved but hiding meanning finally.
I mean contrast for example between Dodal and Conver.
For me Dodal is more allegorical and Conver more real in the sense that his LE PENDV looks likes a man hanged with his arms tied back in a believe position,so his fingers are imposible too see.

Dodal shows for me a metaphor of fingers as wings // Explicit allegorical Image
Conver shows me has no methaphor and has hide meaning // Explicit real Image
I m not talking about meaning just only watching the Image card.
I m not saying that "Is an allegory of an spiritual stage free of earth gravitation as a result of inner alchemy transmutation"
I usually avoid personal "reading" of the cards and just want to try to simply watch what the image card tell to us.
Personal reading for me is a matter is precisely a personal matter and I respect it very much,aside be agree or not with other perspective.(Afterall is a Private thing)
That thread has subtle topic for me that is crucial.
How much image detail intention had the author of the card ?
Which degree of balance exists between the obvious image of a hanged man and subtle hide or explicit details meanings ?
Did the author of the deck really cares to match this ?
Aside the obvius purpose to make a deck to sell which have a game undeniable destiny,could the meaning coexist ?
We here somewhat 300 years after,doing analyze of topics that I think weren t important for the majority of the people of that time.I believe they saw simply a hanged man.I point just may be.

The reversal numbered is another topic is best for another thread for me because involve intentional or not,subtle or not meaning,simply negligence or not.

Have a nice day ...

Eugim

 

[jmd]

I agree with the point made by eugim that at the time, "they simply saw a hanged man" - and an implicit aspect of this point is perhaps even more important: in seeing the card, many - unlike us - would have experienced seeing a real hanged man by the foot or feet!

In that light, even the assault that would have been needed to break or dislocate the arms would have been more readily seen in one's environment.

With regards to the differences between the TdM-I (Dodal and co.) and TdM-II (Conver and co.) and their respective 'explicit allegorical image' (for the first) and 'explicit real image' (for the second), I'd like to agree... but find the division perhaps overstated.

Both, I would rather suggest, have explicit 'real' AND 'allegorical' imagery. Where I agree with the sentiment of eugim in those divisions is that the earlier model (ie, TdM-I) may have presented the allegory with more symbolic force by the increased depiction of what must have been a worse scenario for the depicted victim.

I look forward to reading more raised threads from earlier days of this forum, when only but very few amongst us posted what seemed at the time like lone discourses...

...glad to see renewed interest brought out by yourself and a few others!

 

[eugim]

JMD:
I m glad too.
Why? / Well not for me but for the " Level" of the inside subtle topics of the card,agree or not for me doesn t really matter.
Which must for me be the last purpose? // Tarot I strongly point,cards iconography that would suggest or not hidden meaning.
For me always is welcome a new opinion that makes a contribution to
understand a meaning of an Iconography of more than 300 years for me somewhat already lost.


I want to be very,very honest here.
Prior to log in me here I searched others forums,and afterall I asked me sincerally WHY do.
I don t mind "expose" me here.I always posted (and you JMD can check it ) that s I usually avoid easy and fast cards meaning without an intense analysis of the images of them before.
In that case "reading cards" I think musn t be the last purpose.
Because I think that the Tarot (understand it) must be the last purpose.
And not my opinion.If it has a degree of value for little it could be may be useful for someone well enough for itself.And that s really all.
I decided Log in here to learn.For example JMD brought me in replay to my post new " angles" to watch the cards.
I could be or not agree.That isn t really matter,the point is he "showed something different"

Here I always feel too bore with overwhelmings posts hard to read because the " Author " just talks about himself all time.
Semms to me that the " Author " EVERY wants that I be convinced he knows overwhelming too much.
Al last the " Author" has the echo of his mind and nothing else...
Tarot contribution ? / Nothing....

If a few and very little I learned from Tarot is forget preconceptions (All) and most of all forget Ourselves...
If we are watching a mountain I think we must just appreciate it,don t "Put us inside it",don t use it as a mirror that s always return to ours and nothing to learn about the mountain.
Really I don t want to be sarcastic but Tarot of Marseilles enough proved be alive for somewhat more than 300 years Without ours opinion.

Friendly as ever.

Eugim

 

[jmd]

I think I see what you mean, eugim...

In a Freemasonic research paper from the 1970s (I should have it somewhere, and may even have quoted it before - published in Quatuor Coronatum), the author bemoans the manner in which many who come to the Craft try and see it according to their own preconceived ideas (whether jungian, alchemical, kabbalistic, or whatever), instead of allowing a careful observation to permit the very symbols and allegories to begin to unveil themselves.

This was also a point I tried to raise (from a different perspective) in a thread I once opened titled: The instrument is its own teacher.

 

[Rosanne]

If we are watching a mountain I think we must just appreciate it,don t "Put us inside it",don t use it as a mirror that s always return to ours and nothing to learn about the mountain.
Really I don t want to be sarcastic but Tarot of Marseilles enough proved be alive for somewhat more than 300 years Without ours opinion.

Then why have a history class at all? Just let us have a 'lets look at the Mountain' Class. We all have preconceptions- well I think we do- History class can change that preconception and often does.
Lets say four people are sitting looking at the mountain, and they are, as well as being a Mountain watcher, a geologist, a painter, a climber and tunnel builder. The Mountain has been there a long time also. They each may well appreciate the Mountain, but you would bet they would bring some questions according to their profession- like What if? How could? Maybe if? Might it be? It is? and so on....it does not make the Mountain less of a Mountain- less uplifting, less spiritual, less of a lesson in beauty or design. The only thing that is sure is that the Mountain is there and what it is made of. I would be interested in how each look at the Mountain.
Your post was just as elitist as those who you claim like to hear their own voices; and it is just one more point of view.
Me? I am friendly too!
regards
Rosanne

 

[eugim]

JMD :
I saw your opened thread // Can I add more ?
I just recently comes back from a reply thread about II LA PAPESSE
And there I made a preface before the topic thread,where I mention your highly intuition to see the "intrinsecal point that s all about" when all is a chaotic knot of cross opinions.

There I said that your dart always hurts Bulls eye.

You know that I avoid personal reference but for the example of the Mountain I mentioned it because is real,now I m spending my holly-days (Literal.Allegorical or Metaphorical ? /Friendly) with my wife visiting my sister who lives at a beautifull Mountain and Valley place too much far from my City "Lights " (Sarcastic again ...)
And as you know contrast help us "Place" oneself,others and things.
You know I come from a distant country,here we haven t the "goes and get it "
If I m looking for a serious book surely I will ends at the Net.
I m spanish speaking and believe me that each post cost me "Mucho" (Too much),but I really want to be here.
Many times I had to repost to correct matters of ortographic,semantic or simply meaning of worlds thats for others surely are so usual.
And that s really let s me thinking sadly "What a pity"
Because light up ours minds the crossing fire minds on a thread
I m now so far from my home and my books but I now remember this book " Zen in the Art of Archery " by Eugen Herrigel and D.Suzuki
There Mr Herrigel was very affraid because he can t hit.
He went two,three,four,five etc. times,but he can t
When his master saw he run out ,he kindly suggets he can t hit the target because simply he wants to.
In Tarot for me is the same approach,I think that we must leaves us outisde before enter here,so may be just may be us Intuiton hit the target.


Eugim

 

[Debra]

I think we understand most of what you say, Eugim.

Sometimes, it is just disagreement. (friendly!)

 

[eugim]

Rossane:
I just only want to mention the Mountain as an example about see the cards as itself no putting us inside,or something.
Just watch them on a visual sense I mean without any preconception.
We have no historic books about cards meaning,so we haqve only the image-card.
By the way I m glad of your friendly way also.

Eugim