Papal electors & results of election

[Sophie]

JMD - thanks for reminding us of the spiritual wishes of John Paul II as to the spiritual leadersip expected of a future Pope. This is in line with my belief that one of the Church's (inner)urgencies is reversing the swift loss of faithful to the call of missionaries from fundamentalist Protestant Evangelical Churches from the US (or homegrown). someone seen as merely an admisnistrator or a politician will not do the trick. Although I would say that someone with a good political nose was also essential.

That's why I thought someone with Cups - possibly Batons - more likely to be elected, and the likeliest of all - someone with Cups and Batons.

Moongold, you talk of the "Western Church". It's my understanding that means the whole of the Church of Rome, as opposed to the Eastern Church - the Greek and Russian Orthodox faiths (and the Syriac falls in that bag too). Do you mean, then, the "Northern Church" (the Church of Rome in Europe, US; Australia, etc.), as opposed to the "Southern Church" (ditto in Africa, Latin America)?

 

[Moongold]

JMD - thanks for reminding us of the spiritual wishes of John Paul II as to the spiritual leadersip expected of a future Pope. This is in line with my belief that one of the Church's (inner)urgencies is reversing the swift loss of faithful to the call of missionaries from fundamentalist Protestant Evangelical Churches from the US (or homegrown). someone seen as merely an admisnistrator or a politician will not do the trick. Although I would say that someone with a good political nose was also essential.

That's why I thought someone with Cups - possibly Batons - more likely to be elected, and the likeliest of all - someone with Cups and Batons.

Moongold, you talk of the "Western Church". It's my understanding that means the whole of the Church of Rome, as opposed to the Eastern Church - the Greek and Russian Orthodox faiths (and the Syriac falls in that bag too). Do you mean, then, the "Northern Church" (the Church of Rome in Europe, US; Australia, etc.), as opposed to the "Southern Church" (ditto in Africa, Latin America)?

Greetings Helvetica ~

No, perhaps I am displaying how old fashioned I now am. I simply meant what has sometimes traditionally been understood as the West - essentially the capitalist countries, but including those who once were understood as social democracies. It is old fashioned terminology. I will have to reconceptualize how I see these now.

There is documented discontent in Northern America about the Vatican's attitude to governance matters. There are concerns in the USA about the Pope's adherence to conservative dogma. The support by the Vatican of an American Cardinal who oversaw and thus enabled sexual abuse of children in his directorate is seen as inherently contradictory. Some might might call the Vatican's attitude merciful but it is not necessarily perceived as such. Perception is everything in politics.

The Church seems unwilling to countenance changes in dogma that might make it more sensitive to the needs of the world today. Perhaps there are people who want the see the Church more willing to do something practical about the structure of the male priesthood and the role that has played in the decrease of priestly vocations and in ongoing sexual abuse of children and women. The Church in Australia is now bringing in priests from former Third World countries to take up priestly roles. Well, we do that with other professions, why not the priesthood ? .

The Pope's idea of "spiritual" encompasses Catholic dogma and the structure of Rome. Many Catholics I know regard some of that as belonging to the "political" church and have a completely different understanding of the "spiritual" church.

I don't know what I think any more, and as I have been outside the Church for many years perhaps it does not really matter. I do admire John Paul II very much. The Catholic flock is huge and diverse; to be Shepherd of it requires an exceptional human being. I can admire him as that without belief in Catholicism.

Moongold

 

[catti]

Joseph Ratzinger- 8 of coins/disc , rx

This makes me think about how Tarot can reflect our wishes.
I dont think JMD was "wrong" more like our interpretations off, in my case this card is a great example of what i feel about this choice.

 

[jmd]

I accept, rather, that I was wrong.

It is interesting how one could argue in what ways this may be re-interpreted with 20/20 hindsight vision, but will also now link to a thread I created and dated much earlier - with the name of the Pope, who, and his date.

Obviously, the birthdate was taken from the (mistaken) to-be election forecast, which I took from the above reading opening this post.

His adopted name, however, was taken from another reading I did that I did not post, and likewise his duration as Pope (taken from a reading that suggested poor health, and also supported by later reading up on the same).

...and so now link with appropriate dates:

Pope Benedictus XVI