Saying what you see

[Debra]

This happens with writers, too.

Some people don't know what they're thinking until they hear themselves saying it.

I'm like that.

 

[Gazel]

This is an interesting thread and question.
I've read most about tarot in english and sometimes when I read or talk about it (in danish) it becomes a misk mask of danish and english. And sometimes I even take for granted that people understand what I mean saying fx Queen of Pentacles instead of "Mønternes dronning". But that is my least problem in regard to translation.

And I do think the phrase "lost in translation" is indeed very apt here.

The fascinating thing for me about reading for a sitter actually sitting there - is the challenge of translating my thoughts and intuitions and first takes into a coherent expression, that makes sense.

Being a very swordish person (or some part of me is - my persona - I think), I'm very concerned that what I say makes sense. But this swordishness may even blur the "translation" even more. So the even bigger challenge for me is to let go of my swordishnes and being more wandish or cupish (I guess you know what I mean - or I hope so) and as Floracove suggests, just say what I think, when the thought comes to my mind, instead of "translating" it.

 

[Grizabella]

This happens with writers, too.

Some people don't know what they're thinking until they hear themselves saying it.

I'm like that.

A lot of times in AA meetings, you'll hear people say, "I said what I needed to hear" because they'll have verbalized something they know but don't realize they know till they hear themselves say it. Alcohol kills brain cells so a lot of the connections aren't there that would be there in a healthy brain.

Thats the way G'bella.
There's no moss on you yet.

But I look so good in green velvet!

 

[Le Fanu]

What language do you dream in? That is, generally speaking, the language of your sub conscious mind

Good question. But I dream in both. I also think and ponder in both languages and don´t always know which. I have a distinct sense sometimes, like a radio, of changing channels! And what is odd is that when Im listening to music, the meaning and feeling goes into my brain and I often find myself having to pause and listen to see what language the song is in. The meaning and feeling is going in and language has become immaterial. I love it when this happens. ("is this sung in English or Portuguese?" I often have to stop and concentrate!)

I think the analogy of reading tarot and speaking more than one language is very appropriate. Tarot is, after all, another language we have to learn to decipher. Whether we can articulate that into a language which can be understood by others i.e the querent sitting in front of us, is another matter...

 

[greycats]

Reading tarot, especially with fully illustrated decks, is very much a visual process and not so much a verbal one. The translation from pictures to words is neither simple nor all encompassing. Something always gets left out. Sometimes it's even hard to seize upon the most obvious, important thing.

One trick that works for me is to begin to describe, carefully and calmly, what is depicted on the card. That's a little different than what you "see" since if you're like me, you don't always see everything right away. You can do this even with pips, but it works better with illustrated decks. Somehow just talking about the scene seems to bridge the ideas I've pulled from the visual aspects of the cards and the words I need to describe them.

And sometimes I've had clients say "that's me" or something similar while I'm doing the description--which is an added benefit.

 

[nisaba]

Good question. But I dream in both. I also think and ponder in both languages and don´t always know which.

My mother, who is truly bilingual, worked for some years as a translator for first conferences then groups of tourists. She once told a story of a tourist who wanted to say something fairly lengthy to a local, so she thought for a moment, turned to the local - and jabbered away in the foreign language! She had translated from German into German. The Australian looked stunned. The German burst out laughing and said that now he knew she was a good translator because the German she used was classier than the German he had originally used!

 

[Raya]

I didn't fully read this thread, so forgive me if I'm repeated what others have already said.

In college, my Chinese art teacher sagely told me, "Words are a broken net," they can't fully capture every idea we have. (Check out Madonna's music video "Bedtime Story" for more on that.) That's why, I believe, we have symbols and why symbolism is so important.

For example, we've all see the Cross, and if you looked it up in a reference book, it'd probably say it was a Christian symbol and had to do with the Crucifixion, but if you asked a devout Christian what it meant, they might have trouble putting it into words. It represents their beliefs, history, values, world view, even their grandmother taking them to church when they were children, etc.

Tarot is similar in that it is made up of symbols which represent higher ideas, things that aren't easily put into words. Many psychologists have found evidence to suggest that humans can't have ideas without words for them (thus the phrase "coming to terms" with something; by being able to express something, we can accept it.) Symbols can help our minds grasp concepts too profound or maybe complicated for words. So I think we should have trouble trying to verbally express what we see in the cards, it shows we're tapping into those profound and complex ideas.

(That's also why I don't like decks with literal words and pictures on them, eg the Death card as "Change," the Magician card as "Ability," etc. It waters down the cards' meanings by denying the reader the opportunity to find the many layers to their symbols, but that's another rant for another thread.)

 

[Cat*]

Good question. But I dream in both. I also think and ponder in both languages and don´t always know which. I have a distinct sense sometimes, like a radio, of changing channels! And what is odd is that when Im listening to music, the meaning and feeling goes into my brain and I often find myself having to pause and listen to see what language the song is in. The meaning and feeling is going in and language has become immaterial. I love it when this happens. ("is this sung in English or Portuguese?" I often have to stop and concentrate!)

You have no idea how comforting it is to read this description! My brain works exactly the same: I dream, think, write, free associate in both languages. I've been known to speak English for half a day with my (also German native-languaged) Beloved before either of us even noticed. The most difficult thing to me is having to switch channels (which is why I'm often not a very good, let alone fast, translator). It's as if I store the languages in two different areas of my brain, and I have easy access to both in most topics, but the direct connection between these areas is underdeveloped. I also get the "wait, is this in English or German?" with books I read...

One trick that works for me is to begin to describe, carefully and calmly, what is depicted on the card. That's a little different than what you "see" since if you're like me, you don't always see everything right away. You can do this even with pips, but it works better with illustrated decks. Somehow just talking about the scene seems to bridge the ideas I've pulled from the visual aspects of the cards and the words I need to describe them.

And sometimes I've had clients say "that's me" or something similar while I'm doing the description--which is an added benefit.

I do the same, and it works great for me. Is that why there are so many readings in the exchanges that start with a description of the card, even if the image is attached?

For example, we've all see the Cross, and if you looked it up in a reference book, it'd probably say it was a Christian symbol and had to do with the Crucifixion, but if you asked a devout Christian what it meant, they might have trouble putting it into words. It represents their beliefs, history, values, world view, even their grandmother taking them to church when they were children, etc.

Fantastic description!

It explains why it can be so hard to "feel" the symbols we didn't grow up with. Sure, we can read all about it in a book or ten, but that will never let us know how the church smelled, how your Sunday School teacher's voice sounded, or how the church bible felt in your hands... (I'm making up experiences here). Which also explains why I can relatively easily connect to spiritual systems which I didn't grow up with - but have a hard time with many of the symbols they use. That is, I feel drawn to a spiritual worldview (e.g. some sort of neo-Paganism), but not necessarily to its symbols (e.g. the pentagram, much of the deity imagery, certain ritual tools...).

It also explains the need for constantly updating our symbolic language - a good reason for many of the tarot decks out there who attempt to illustrate the same concept over and over again, so that it makes immediate sense to us today (as opposed to learning ancient symbolism from a book).

*loving this thread*

 

[Mariana]

You have no idea how comforting it is to read this description! My brain works exactly the same: I dream, think, write, free associate in both languages. I've been known to speak English for half a day with my (also German native-languaged) Beloved before either of us even noticed. The most difficult thing to me is having to switch channels (which is why I'm often not a very good, let alone fast, translator). It's as if I store the languages in two different areas of my brain, and I have easy access to both in most topics, but the direct connection between these areas is underdeveloped. I also get the "wait, is this in English or German?" with books I read...

Same here, I've frequently been convinced of having read something in Dutch when actually I read it in English - telling people that, yes, there was a manual in Dutch with the item, as I clearly remember reading it, when they just can't find it...
Like most of the others, my tarot vocabulary is mainly in English, as all the books and international contacts are. Reading cards in Dutch would feel awkward.
And Cat, I think having languages stored in two different areas has to do with how you learn a language: studying lists at school versus learning it in a real life context. If you memorise lists with translated meanings, you will easily remember the translation but not 'feel' the delineation of a concept; while if you learn a word in real life, you will know its meaning within the conceptual framework of that language. So translating would then mean something like sticking to the same exact point within the grid, but switching to a different overlaying structure...

 

[Cat*]

And Cat, I think having languages stored in two different areas has to do with how you learn a language: studying lists at school versus learning it in a real life context. If you memorise lists with translated meanings, you will easily remember the translation but not 'feel' the delineation of a concept; while if you learn a word in real life, you will know its meaning within the conceptual framework of that language. So translating would then mean something like sticking to the same exact point within the grid, but switching to a different overlaying structure...

Thank you, that explains a lot, and it's another great image!