alejandro
Could anyone give a link to some website where a good explanation of different cardboard/paper stocks could be found? I mean in regard of choosing stock for the Tarot.
Tarot Publishing Business
RiccardoLS
alejandro said:
Beside that you don't want to know how much I am paid (
)... if you plan to start a business you must consider how many decks are you going to sell in order to actually make a profit.That means that most calculations above are simply over-budget. You cannot afford that in terms of time or resources.
Sad but true.
Either you may find a motivation different from money to work with artists and writers (and that's important, but you can't rely on that), or you must approach the whole process in a different way. For instance you may have decks that are relaboration fo public domain images (like 1001 nights from LS, or many others out there from most publishers). You replace art with smart. And still you may do some very nice decks.
Many times it has been said that LS deck tend to be very comic-book style. The fact is that comic-book artists are often both very professional and very fast.
They are used to work on "panels" each containing 4, or 6 different drawings...
Even as mind framework... sometimes to them creating a Tarot deck is like creating a 20 pages full color graphic novel. And they may charge accordingly, in a very different way from an illustrator or a painter.
However, of this I'm sure, Tarot doesn't really pay ^_^
ric
cirom
I'll add my two cents worth here.
There are certainly good (relative) prices available for printing, I got what I considered decent quotes from Carta Mundi when I was reviewing my options for the Tarot of Dreams. However as Baba indicated, reasonable costs tend to be a result of standard options, in other words Carta mundi had standard sizes and card stock to choose from. Unfortunately none matched the proportions I wanted, furthermore I wanted to have a more hands on experience, I wanted to be able to check proofs on press, make subtle adjustments to colour etc if necessary. This ruled out the more attractive prices that I may have received from more remote locations such as the Far East. The advantage of working more intimately with a local printer however were offset by a higher per unit cost, but even more inconvenient was the fact that they didn't have the machinery to collate the decks. That had to be done for each and every deck. While the printer could have arranged to do it (at an additional fee) I really did'nt have confidence in people unfamiliar with tarot hand collating 78 images into the correct order. The fact that I personally signed each deck also meant that having the decks delivererd allready shrink wrapped was also not an option. So in other words the costs can vary considerably when you veer away from any common standard or template.
As for payments, I believe you will find there's a reasonable similarity in how much publishers pay an artist. The market would'nt accept too much variation. Usually a percentage of profits from sales in the form of royalties. Sometimes with an advance payment against those royalties. Since the publishers are usually overwhelmed with submissions for tarot decks in any given year, and I understand they actually accept less than 5% of those, it would be highly unlikely that they would need to commission a deck.
From a creators point of view, there are so many criterea by which to evaluate your work in your own mind let alone establishing one for the purpose of negociation, that I would'nt know how to begin. As euripides suggested, one might try doing so by how much average time you spend on an image and relating that in some way to a salery. But even that is riddled with variables. Is the time one takes on an image due to its style, or just your personal speed, what about the thinking time behind an image. It amazes me that some deck images shown on these forums are produced almost by the day. In my case an image on average will be one to two weeks. Some decks produced as say a photmontage or collage of artworks by other artists, arguably take far less time to actually produce, but you would have to consider the research time in finding all those images in the first place. Some styles are more simple (I mean that as a description not put down) and via the mind set of the artist clearly quicker to do, (Riccardo's interesting take on the comic book approach of some LS decks). So while time certainly has to be reflected in the financial rational, placing a value on it based on time alone is problamatic. Which of course does'nt help provide you with a direct answer, other than to say the art 'costs' really will be random and dependant on more intageables such as the artists personal evaluation, both in their own mind and that of the public. Are they experienced in the field, are they known, do they have a reputation that would provide additional credability and 'value' to the finished product. I still do commissioned design and illustration work for corporate clients, for which I value my time at approximatelt $250 an hour, a figure that clearly would'nt be applicable to a tarot deck as that would translate to over$780,000. Even Riccardo would'nt pay that My point being that clearly a tarot deck requires a different evaluation in the mind of the artist, one that balances personal motivation (love for the project) and the reality of any personal financial needs.
There are certainly good (relative) prices available for printing, I got what I considered decent quotes from Carta Mundi when I was reviewing my options for the Tarot of Dreams. However as Baba indicated, reasonable costs tend to be a result of standard options, in other words Carta mundi had standard sizes and card stock to choose from. Unfortunately none matched the proportions I wanted, furthermore I wanted to have a more hands on experience, I wanted to be able to check proofs on press, make subtle adjustments to colour etc if necessary. This ruled out the more attractive prices that I may have received from more remote locations such as the Far East. The advantage of working more intimately with a local printer however were offset by a higher per unit cost, but even more inconvenient was the fact that they didn't have the machinery to collate the decks. That had to be done for each and every deck. While the printer could have arranged to do it (at an additional fee) I really did'nt have confidence in people unfamiliar with tarot hand collating 78 images into the correct order. The fact that I personally signed each deck also meant that having the decks delivererd allready shrink wrapped was also not an option. So in other words the costs can vary considerably when you veer away from any common standard or template.
As for payments, I believe you will find there's a reasonable similarity in how much publishers pay an artist. The market would'nt accept too much variation. Usually a percentage of profits from sales in the form of royalties. Sometimes with an advance payment against those royalties. Since the publishers are usually overwhelmed with submissions for tarot decks in any given year, and I understand they actually accept less than 5% of those, it would be highly unlikely that they would need to commission a deck.
From a creators point of view, there are so many criterea by which to evaluate your work in your own mind let alone establishing one for the purpose of negociation, that I would'nt know how to begin. As euripides suggested, one might try doing so by how much average time you spend on an image and relating that in some way to a salery. But even that is riddled with variables. Is the time one takes on an image due to its style, or just your personal speed, what about the thinking time behind an image. It amazes me that some deck images shown on these forums are produced almost by the day. In my case an image on average will be one to two weeks. Some decks produced as say a photmontage or collage of artworks by other artists, arguably take far less time to actually produce, but you would have to consider the research time in finding all those images in the first place. Some styles are more simple (I mean that as a description not put down) and via the mind set of the artist clearly quicker to do, (Riccardo's interesting take on the comic book approach of some LS decks). So while time certainly has to be reflected in the financial rational, placing a value on it based on time alone is problamatic. Which of course does'nt help provide you with a direct answer, other than to say the art 'costs' really will be random and dependant on more intageables such as the artists personal evaluation, both in their own mind and that of the public. Are they experienced in the field, are they known, do they have a reputation that would provide additional credability and 'value' to the finished product. I still do commissioned design and illustration work for corporate clients, for which I value my time at approximatelt $250 an hour, a figure that clearly would'nt be applicable to a tarot deck as that would translate to over$780,000. Even Riccardo would'nt pay that
My point being that clearly a tarot deck requires a different evaluation in the mind of the artist, one that balances personal motivation (love for the project) and the reality of any personal financial needs.Deckster
Business model
I am looking at a couple business models and wondered if I might get insight from the group here.
The first model publishes a variety of cards, almost exclusively Tarot and markets to the a modest niche that consists of multiples of competitors. There are on AE alone over 800 decks and the vast majority of them are Tarot or Tarot inspired. Seems that would be a hard market to make an impact on with big guns like U.S. Games and Llewelyn as your market peers. The decks are published and the support is limited to word of mouth and publisher support and some support from the artist. Even then, decks like Sarah Ovenall's Victoria Regina (Llwellyn) though well received can go OOP relatively fast due to the huge market of decks it is competing with. This is why I am looking at the second model for my own Oracle deck and book.
The second model publishes a single deck or a limited set of closely related items over a period of time, starting with the "Base line product" then doing line extentions, books and sidelines, then supports the published material with special events, classes, workshops, coaching and certification. Some good examples of this might be say James Wanless (Voyager Intuition, Inc) or Caroline Myss (Hay House). It seems that they see the decks like a CD or Album that you then go do "appearances" in support of the publication. I might also mention that these decks are often not traditional tarot.
So I guess my question is, do you see these as the two business models in this field or am I missing something key here?? Any input would be greatly appreciated.
I am looking at a couple business models and wondered if I might get insight from the group here.
The first model publishes a variety of cards, almost exclusively Tarot and markets to the a modest niche that consists of multiples of competitors. There are on AE alone over 800 decks and the vast majority of them are Tarot or Tarot inspired. Seems that would be a hard market to make an impact on with big guns like U.S. Games and Llewelyn as your market peers. The decks are published and the support is limited to word of mouth and publisher support and some support from the artist. Even then, decks like Sarah Ovenall's Victoria Regina (Llwellyn) though well received can go OOP relatively fast due to the huge market of decks it is competing with. This is why I am looking at the second model for my own Oracle deck and book.
The second model publishes a single deck or a limited set of closely related items over a period of time, starting with the "Base line product" then doing line extentions, books and sidelines, then supports the published material with special events, classes, workshops, coaching and certification. Some good examples of this might be say James Wanless (Voyager Intuition, Inc) or Caroline Myss (Hay House). It seems that they see the decks like a CD or Album that you then go do "appearances" in support of the publication. I might also mention that these decks are often not traditional tarot.
So I guess my question is, do you see these as the two business models in this field or am I missing something key here?? Any input would be greatly appreciated.
HudsonGray
That would also include 'posters' and stickers, tote bags, t-shirts, and other memorabelia, in the second model, right? (I tend to think of these as the 'Disney approach', where they have the one product but make a hugely significant portion of their overall cash from all the peripherals, they pretty much wrote the book on it).
Deckster
Hmmmm
I hadn't seen the Voyager Tarot t-shirts but I suppose that is a possibility. I think that it's about intention and taste when you are doing the second model. I suppose what I was asking was variety of decks (product) compared to consistency of Deck (product) , then supporting the material through regular marketing and awareness.
BTW there was a time when Uncle Walt did that well. Disney of old offered fairly high quality memorabilia. It wasn't until the Eisner era that it became junk 'o rama. Either way I really don't see the good people who are in the market for a tarot or oracle being into a velvet painting of "The Tower" or "Death" though stranger things have happened I suppose.
I hadn't seen the Voyager Tarot t-shirts but I suppose that is a possibility. I think that it's about intention and taste when you are doing the second model. I suppose what I was asking was variety of decks (product) compared to consistency of Deck (product) , then supporting the material through regular marketing and awareness.
BTW there was a time when Uncle Walt did that well. Disney of old offered fairly high quality memorabilia. It wasn't until the Eisner era that it became junk 'o rama. Either way I really don't see the good people who are in the market for a tarot or oracle being into a velvet painting of "The Tower" or "Death" though stranger things have happened I suppose.
Scion
Hey Deckster,Deckster said:
I don't see these as separate models, but rather points along a spectrum. Some people who are published by "large" Tarot publishers do an enormous amount of personal promotion work, and some folks who publish on their own produce items that are connected by no more than the umbrella of their own "house style" or personal interests. In fact, I can't think of anyone who's built a single deck and then riffed on that single deck/idea endlessly.
The ironic thing in all this is that Llewellyn and U.S. Games in the Tarot market are big guns, but in global publishing terms are guppies amongst barracuda. Ditto Scarabeo with its office of (correct me if I'm wrong here, Ric) 6 employees doing an army's worth of production work.
As far as sequentially releasing themed spinoffs tangential to an oracle deck goes... It sounds more like you've got something specific in mind. Wanless and a (very) few others may do targeted merchandising like that, but I haven't noticed it being a particularly successful production model. I'd say it's completely product specific. Ciro's Gilded Tarot touched a deep, untapped reservoir of consumer desire and became a sensation, but not because Llewellyn released Tshirts or paperweights. Before I'd print the Tshirts, I'd build and identify the zealous fanbase that would buy them. In general, I'd say that sidelines like you're describing are personality dependent: personality of the creator and of the product itself. Recognition/fame is also a huge factor. If Dan Brown released an oracle the marketing could probably support a series of spin off products. But splitting focus can also work against you, segmenting and killing your audience.
I have a friend who was chief of marketing for Levi's for many many years who told me a fascinating marketing story form the mid 90s: The Gap had cornered its market so thoroughly that they branched into higher end sportswear with a reimagined Banana Republic, and then simultaneously went after the cheap'n'cheerful market with Old Navy. The logic was sound: if people will buy midrange products, why not get the cushier clients AND the people squeezing value out of every dollar. One corporate parent can own the sportswear market, right? But the plan backfired in a big way. For several years, The Gap's worst competition was Old Navy and Banana Republic. It almost put itself out of business because by putting its muscle behind the other demographics, they leached adventurous customers upwards and cautious shoppers downwards. The midrange flagship store suffered terribly and a radical reshuffling had to occur to save it from implosion.
The analogy is not as strained as it might seem. There is a market for mass produced, beginner friendly RWS clones that a casual shopper can toss in a basket on the way to checkout. There is also a market for handmade, gilt-edged decks that come with custom bags and limited numbers. If you want to produce an oracle deck with a wealth of supporting literature and related merchandise, you ought to look at who would be willing to buy it, at what cost, and with what amount of encouragement. Really targeting your ideal market can be an educational first step to a business plan.
From what I've seen, Tarot publishing is a little more like the music industry on the indie end. Each Studio has a house style and a release schedule with which fans have grown familiar. Folks budget themselves to acquire a certain amount of product over a calendar year, and they track what's coming. The audience is very artist loyal, although with exceptional creative studios, there is studio loyalty as well (Baba, anyone?
) Quality and standards can vary widely and are basically subjective. Because it's a small community, each new work impacts everything that follows. The playing filed is occasionally leveled by innovation: a beautiful composition by a kid in a basement can demolish the most glossy, corporate product if it's fresh, funky, and fashion-forward enough. Like music, people tend to resist anything that strays too widely form what is popularly recognized as tradition, but they get impatient with mindless repetition. As I tell all my producers, audiences want each new piece of art to be "uniquely familiar."I have a feeling I'm teaching my granny to suck eggs, but this thread continues to stir up interesting thoughts... Deckster, I look forward to seeing your Oracle when it's released, and I'm curious about Alejandro'sc concrete areas of interest.
Scion
alejandro
RiccardoLS said:Beside that you don't want to know how much I am paid (
Hm, being a newbie here I wouldn't expect such direct questions are welcome. But I'm sure a lot of people in the forum are eager to know that.
But back to the subject:
RiccardoLS said:
The more I read the forum the more similarity to any other small or middle-sized business I see. Say in filmmaking our company (as any other beginner) had to produce it's first feature film with the so called zero recoupment. At the finish - if you are lucky - you just get the money you spent back. But the try is worth for many reasons: you train your team, you have the portfolio (sample of work), you have reputation of 'being through to the end'. And only then you start fine-tuning and ajusting your technology knowing already the pitfals. And also you start to plan some profit in following projects. I'm 100% agree that without motivation other than money one should not edge into any artistic business, at least in Europe.
RiccardoLS said:
That's what I think about. In filmmaking (sorry) we have storyboard artists who are generally are well trained artists of different styles but have in common the ability to work fast, with high quality and flexibility to the demands of the producer/publisher.
I don't really like the idea of collages and public domain works. I have in mind several really great artists who have a huge amount of work already done and there is a possibility of selection and arranging some of their vivid images into a 78 pieces line. As far as I know that was the case with Giger's Baphomet Tarot.
alejandro
To Scion: May be I'd better show some of the images of the artist whom I regard as a prospective candidate to be a Tarot artist. I'm intersted in fine and graphic art but it's difficult for me to explain in terms of style definitions. Being educated at first as art critic I really dislike critics' slang...
http://suspensefilm.com/tarot/01.jpg
http://suspensefilm.com/tarot/02.jpg
http://suspensefilm.com/tarot/04.jpg
http://suspensefilm.com/tarot/05.jpg
http://suspensefilm.com/tarot/06.jpg
http://suspensefilm.com/tarot/01.jpg
http://suspensefilm.com/tarot/02.jpg
http://suspensefilm.com/tarot/04.jpg
http://suspensefilm.com/tarot/05.jpg
http://suspensefilm.com/tarot/06.jpg
baba-prague
Oh, this is Erko, right? I recognise the illustration for Paulo Coelho. Yes, he's great - we have quite a collection! But his images would take some work to fit a standard tarot structure - unless you don't want to use a standard tarot structure? (I guess Scion will find the answer to this particularly interesting )
)