What makes Thoth Thoth?

[Aeon418]

I've (apparently) just acquired my first Thoth-based deck, the Vision Quest Tarot

From what I have seen of the the Vision Quest Tarot I would say that it is only loosely based on the Thoth. Some of the VQ major cards have little or nothing in common with their Thoth counterparts. For example XV The Devil in the Thoth Tarot is a card of powerful creative energy, strength, and individuality. The VQ Devil is called Torment and ties in with all the usual Christian notions of restriction, obsession, and sin that are familiar to decks like the Rider-Waite.

The VQ minor cards are basically redrawn Thoth images with different names. (They're actual card names not key words.) And they follow the same qabalistic structure. But they not a million miles away from the Rider-Waite because they both derive from the Golden Dawn meanings.

The court cards are supposed to represent the elements. The Thoth Knights (VQ Fathers) represent the element of fire. They are on horse back to show that they are rapid, swift, and energetic.
The Queens are seated on thrones to emphasise their stability.
The Princes are a mixture of the Knight and Queen. So they are shown in chariots - a moving throne on wheels. Not as swift as the Knight and less stable than the Queen.

 

[Lillie]

I'm confused now....

 

[Mariana]

Oops, I appear to have caused some confusion here.

From what I have seen of the Vision Quest Tarot I would say that it is only loosely based on the Thoth. Some of the VQ major cards have little or nothing in common with their Thoth counterparts.

The VQ minor cards are basically redrawn Thoth images with different names.

I would agree with all of that. The Vision Quest is very Native American in theme and it probably doesn't incorporate Crowley's theories in any serious way, but the minors are clearly inspired by the Thoth (Crowley-Harris) as opposed to the RWS. So for someone who's used to RWS-decks, the majors are recognisable Native American variations, the minors are different (but very accessible). That's all I meant to say...

 

[fyreflye]

The Thoth deck is based upon the mythology of the new religion Crowley invented (or, if you're a believer, "was revealed to him") in 1904 and which is outlined in his many books and articles written since around 1911. The only person capable of designing a "Thoth based" deck would be someone high enough in the Thelemic hierarchy that he/she could actually understand all the subtleties of Crowley's new religion so as to invent new images to express it. This being the case, the only "Thoth based" decks I'm aware of are the Via Tarot and the Liber T.

 

[Aeon418]

The Thoth deck is based upon the mythology of the new religion Crowley invented (or, if you're a believer, "was revealed to him") in 1904 and which is outlined in his many books and articles written since around 1911.

The label of "religion" does not fit well when it is applied to Thelema. The conventional western understanding of religion is faith. Thelema is not a faith. Like Buddhism it's more of a spiritual philosophy or an ideology. But faith, blind belief, and superstition are totally alien to Thelema.

For a time around the 1920's Crowley used the label "Scientific Religion". But he eventually dropped it. Towards the end of his life in the 1940's he seemed dead set against the idea. His response to one student who asked if Thelema was a religion was:

Call it a new religion, then, if it so please your Gracious Majesty; but I confess that I fail to see what you will have gained by so doing, and I feel bound to add that you might easily cause a great deal of misunderstanding, and work a rather stupid kind of mischief.

A rather stupid kind of mischief: http://aletheuo.ath.cx/essays/mischief.html

 

[fyreflye]

The label of "religion" does not fit well when it is applied to Thelema. The conventional western understanding of religion is faith. Thelema is not a faith. Like Buddhism it's more of a spiritual philosophy or an ideology. But faith, blind belief, and superstition are totally alien to Thelema.

Anyone who believes that the 1904 Cairo "revelations," witnessed by no one except Crowley and his wife (whom he later had locked away as incompetent) really happened or that The Book of The Law was dictated by the actual voice of his Holy Guardian Angel is operating entirely on faith. The later rationalizations of true believers when confronted by contradictory passages in Crowley's work is possible only to someone who needs (for psychological reasons or to hold on to power within the very small hierarchy of Thelema) to believe them and relies entirely on faith, not evidence.
I might add as a recovering Buddhist that Buddhism itself is entirely faith-based.

 

[Lillie]

Anyone who believes that the 1904 Cairo "revelations," witnessed by no one except Crowley and his wife (whom he later had locked away as incompetent) really happened or that The Book of The Law was dictated by the actual voice of his Holy Guardian Angel is operating entirely on faith.

Weirder things have happened though, haven't they?

 

[Aeon418]

Anyone who believes that the 1904 Cairo "revelations," witnessed by no one except Crowley and his wife (whom he later had locked away as incompetent) really happened or that The Book of The Law was dictated by the actual voice of his Holy Guardian Angel is operating entirely on faith.

Crowley's statement of how he received the Book of the Law is nothing more than his personal account of the event. No one, not even Thelemites, are required to believe it. I know some that don't.
It doesn't even matter if the whole story is a lie. It changes nothing. Crowley promoted the doctrine of Do what thou wilt, and taught practices to realise it. It is 100% experiential.

I might add as a recovering Buddhist that Buddhism itself is entirely faith-based.

Buddha taught the doctrine of Sorrow and the deliverence from it via the Noble Eight fold path. But that path is a practice. You can have as much faith in it as you like, but it won't get you any where unless you practice it.

 

[fyreflye]

Weirder things have happened though, haven't they?

I doubt it; but if you need to believe that you will.

 

[fyreflye]

It doesn't even matter if the whole story is a lie. It changes nothing.

Thanks for proving my point.