What makes Thoth Thoth?

[ravenest]

I still think Thoth (as in 'A.C.'s ' Tarot) = Thelema. That's the whole essence of it and makes the deck different in its internal philosophy and magical system.

It hatched from G.D. - like A.C. did (again see the 'astrological' attributions where constellations are used in both Thoth and G.D. attributions). Some decks might 'seem' like Thoth - like for some, they might use the word Thoth or even the same titles on the cards - to the superficial observer, but the very essence of these cards is the magical philosophy behind them, I feel, and no amount of superficial similarity will make up for that.

If I had vision quest cards I would be interpreting them different from other decks. Whats the point of having a different deck (artistic styles aside) if you interpret them all the same. I definatly would not be interpreting them the samne as Thoth unless they seemed to be Thelemic ... but then again, I'm sure there would be some variation in another Thelemic deck ...

 

[Umbrae]

So another question for Umbrae, is Strength and Justice positions your basic guide for the difference 'tween Thoth and RWC's?

Nope, that's only step one.

Where is Daleth assigned is another step. How is the Devil treated?

It's really unfortunate that (IMO), the term Thoth Based has become a catch-all term, usually used by shopkeepers who know little about Tarot. I've even heard of TdM's as being 'Thoth Based'. And all too often, what the shopkeeper says, gets repeated, and a new myth is born.

 

[ZenMusic]

to address only the original question..

you can learn Thoth-ness (and GDness), by a careful reading of "The Golden Dawn" by Robert Wang (includes the Book "T"; (Wang has errors)) with Crowley's "The Book of Thoth" and comparison to the Waite and Marseilles..


I can give lots more, but this is a start..

 

[Aeon418]

It's really unfortunate that (IMO), the term Thoth Based has become a catch-all term, usually used by shopkeepers who know little about Tarot.

That pretty much sums it up.

The only actual Thoth based decks that I am aware of are Liber T: Tarot of Stars Eternal, Lon Milo DuQuette's The Tarot of Ceremonial Magick, and possibly the The Via Tarot.

Thoth look-a-like decks like the Vision Quest or the Hermetic Tarot are closer to the Golden Dawn Tarot. Their Thoth-ness is merely superficial.

 

[firemaiden]

Well, some apparently trivial decks of Lo Scarabeo have clearly patterned the names and meanings of their minors after the Crowley Thoth -- the many-times renamed "Fairy Tarot" for example, and the Celtic. Some of the majors and court cards in these decks are strongly inspired by the artwork of the Thoth as well.

 

[Aeon418]

The Thoth Tarot is a graphic illustration of the doctrines of Thelema. It is not a Christian based deck.
The underlying structure of the Thoth is a development of the Golden Dawn system.
The Hebrew alphabet is assigned to the cards in a specific way. In particular Heh = The Star and Tzaddi = The Emperor.
Card 8 must be Adjustment/Justice and card 11 must be Lust/Strength.
In regular decks card 20, traditionally called Judgement, shows the resurrection of the dead. This design has been obviated in the new aeon deck and replaced by the Aeon.
The treatment of the Devil in the Thoth is different to most other decks. Gone are the usual Christian based interpretations of a sinister bogey man and notions of sin and guilt. In it's place is a hieroglyph of creative power and individuality.
In contrast the Hanged Man has taken on a more negative taint.

IMHO these things lay at the very heart of the Thoth. Simply imitating the artwork does not qualify a deck as Thoth based. Decks that simply borrow the artistic trappings of the Thoth but ignore the underlying structure are still valid decks in their own right, but they are not Thoth based. Saying that they are is a little like trying to pass off counterfeit goods as the real thing. They might look the same but they ain't the real deal.

Three examples. The Haindl Tarot has an Aeon card in place of Judgement. Does that mean it's a Thoth based deck? No. Haindl uses the Golden Dawn Hebrew alphabet attributions and the Golden Dawn order of the major arcana - 8 Strength, 11 Justice.

The Hermetic Tarot copies the designs of many of the Thoth's minor cards. Does that mean it's a Thoth based deck? Only in the most superficial sense. It's a 100% Golden Dawn deck that has merely borrowed a few pieces of the Thoth's artistic style.

The Golden Dawn Tarot, as per Book T, shares many of the names used on the Thoth minor cards. (They're not key words) The structure of the Golden Dawn minors is identical to the Thoth's minors. But it's still not a Thoth based deck. It would be more accurate to say that the Thoth is a development from the Golden Dawn Tarot.

 

[Le Fanu]

Isn´t the mid-80s Magickal tarot (not DuQuettes one) - now out of print I think -also a Thoth-based one? I always thought it was...

 

[Le Fanu]

..... seems like it is still in print after all. Just checked here....

 

[Mariana]

IMHO these things lay at the very heart of the Thoth. Simply imitating the artwork does not qualify a deck as Thoth based. Decks that simply borrow the artistic trappings of the Thoth but ignore the underlying structure are still valid decks in their own right, but they are not Thoth based. Saying that they are is a little like trying to pass off counterfeit goods as the real thing. They might look the same but they ain't the real deal.

I think people are talking about two different things here. You are describing the essence of the Thoth from the inside and I understand that you want to stress the importance of the whole system behind it. However, the original question (which was not posted in the Thoth subforum) was from a reader who was looking at a deck where the minors didn't follow the RWS images. She wasn't asking whether this deck incorporated the Thoth theories, she probably wasn't even planning to study Thoth theories, she just wanted a general answer on where these minors came from. You answered that the artwork of the Vision Quest may be based on the artwork of the Thoth but doesn't incorporate the theories, which are essential to the actual Thoth. That's the answer to her question. Everything else would be superfluous to the original topic and probably deserve a thread of its own.

 

[Aeon418]

she just wanted a general answer on where these minors came from.

Simple answer, The Golden Dawn.