Wondering: A short list of Marseille conundrums...

[Satori]

My Tarot de Paris also uses espee; plural 's' is usually not marked in it either. Conver, by contrast, always uses epee, without plural 's' either. It wasn't customary to write accents on capital letters in French in 1760 by my recollection.


From Old Norse vøndr, etymologically. It was the Golden Dawn that first called bâtons "wands" (and deniers "pentacles"), and it was Waite and Smith and their deck that popularised them.

The problem is, there really isn't an elegant English equivalent for bâtons, which covers a great deal of sematic space in English: stick, pole, rod, club. cudgel, bat, staff. The crude cudgel of the Ace, the shillelaghs of Valet and Cavalier, the Herculean club of the Queen, the King's oversized sceptre, and the turned rods of the pips are all bâtons. It's one of those Whorfian problems you aren't going to get around easily.

A similar problem exists with deniers; "coins" is barely adequate. A denier was originally a denarius, a Roman penny. The form of the word best nativized in English is "dinar." A "penny" might be a better translation --- better yet if you can envision a large old English penny before the Vile Scourge of Decimalism swept them away.

"Wands" and especially "pentacles" rub some the wrong way, I think, mostly because they smack of magickal obfuscation, lend a false grandeur to the humble objects that are the suit tokens, and assume a whole system that ain't necessarily so. I'd be prepared to accept "wands" as being one of the few English words that covers all of these sticks; the other one being "stick," but that's just wrong.

Great answer ihcoyc. Thank you. Very much what I was looking for.
Yes, I can see how stick would be wrong....LOL.

Sticks and stones.....wands and pentacles.

 

[spoonbender]

The Let's Marseille group started out as being effectively a Let's Hadar group. I understand that people with Marseille decks are also officially welcome and, in fact, I've seen some brave souls posting with Marseille decks, sometimes after asking if they're allowed to use a deck other than a Hadar! I would suggest that the organizers of that group post scans of images from decks other than the Hadar as well. Thus far, the default deck used by the organizers for scanned images for which links are given in the threads is the Hadar as though it were some kind of gold standard in Marseille decks (which is it NOT). The cards of the Hadar materially diverges from corresponding cards from today's in-print Marseille decks. I trust that with time and with exposure to decks other than the Hadar, the dynamic of the group will cease to be as Hadar-centric. I am truly hopeful.

Rusty Neon, I had a déjà vu feeling when I read your post .

This is the link to the first Let's Marseille reading circle - I don't think it says ANYWHERE that you need a Hadar Tarot de Marseille to participate. Rest assured that it's NOT a Hadar group and it never will be.

CharmingPixie, who was kind enough to scan all the images, only owned the Hadar Tarot de Marseille back then. I wouldn't want to see her go through all that work again, but of course you are MORE than welcome to scan a Tarot de Marseille that you think is more appropriate .

Spoon

 

[Fulgour]

thanks elf

I was just visiting "Let's Marseille" and this was the first time
and I'd ever seen the entire Hadar. I'm still feeling the high!
&
Thank You, Charming Pixie tho' I'll still always cherish most
the ten of batons you provided a link to for me t'other day...

~Fulgour

 

[Rusty Neon]

CharmingPixie, who was kind enough to scan all the images, only owned the Hadar Tarot de Marseille back then. I wouldn't want to see her go through all that work again, but of course you are MORE than welcome to scan a Tarot de Marseille that you think is more appropriate .

Yet the organizers have time to start setting up reversals of the Hadar images for linkage. By the way, although I don't have a scanner, I did provide links to a website with images of the Camoin Bicentennial deck (printed in 1960 with 1760 Conver plates and 1880 colours), but nonetheless the only images that the organizers are referring members to in the Let's Marseille threads continue to be the Hadar scans, despite the iconological value of the Camoin Bicentennial images.

 

[jmd]

Each person is at liberty to scan, post or link to only the images they decide, without thereby implying that that is the only Marseille deck around, and without needing to feel as though they are doing a dis-service when the opposite is being offered.

The iconographic merits of a number of recent Marseille offerings are there for the many of us to enjoy - and it is up to whoever posts to add to what has already been offered.

Some of us certainly have preferences for some of the modern re-creations, as to be expected.

 

[Rusty Neon]

Each person is at liberty to scan, post or link to only the images they decide, without thereby implying that that is the only Marseille deck around, and without needing to feel as though they are doing a dis-service when the opposite is being offered.

I agree, as far as individuals are concerned. However, if the organizers of the threads are, at the beginning of each thread, expressly bringing attention to the Hadar scans, I would humbly suggest that - in the spirit of Marseille ecumenism - it's fit that they also mention the Camoin Bicentennial links that are on the same sticky as the Hadar scans.

 

[jmd]

Join in, and post them!

Why not add to the enjoyment of all, rather than decide that another's preference is not adequate ?

If that was the case, there would be numerous threads that would see me only complaining, instead of adding my contributions. And on this note, I'll stop diffusing this discussion any further.

 

[Diana]

Tell me more about the Reading Exchange & Let's Marseille...
I guess I'm kind of shy about just stumbling in (dunno why).

Hey Fulgour! I just noticed you rang the door at the Reading Exchange! In the Advice for the Week thread! I hope someone turns up soon to give you some good advice... (I already had my Advice for the Week - too much Advice can be confusing, otherwise I would have loved to take up your offer.)

Elf: I personally dislike the Fournier. Most people love it though. Use it, enjoy it... if you like it. The more I look at it, the more I dislike it. It's the cheapest Marseilles deck one can find in Switzerland... it's the one they sell in the Stationary Department in the department store up in town. To me, it's a deck that looks like some kid has been using it as a colouring-in book. The colours on the Etoile card screw up the meaning of the card (in my eyes, anyway.) (Just one example, of course... it's not only because of L'Etoile that I don't like the deck!!)

I think I'm the only one on the forums who thinks this is a lousy Marseilles deck and I will never use it.

As to the term used somewhere in a post further up "oecumenical". That's another concept that I'm not too keen on. They have these oecumenical ceremonies sometimes up in the Cathedral in town. I don't go to them, because I wouldn't be seen dead in a church, but I read about them, and to me, these services seem neither "here" nor "there".

I'm NOT saying that only one deck should be used in the Let's Marseilles group. I myself plan to use different decks for my readings - the Conver, the Hadar, the Grimaud for example. But the term "oecumenical" is not something that makes me jump up and down on my seat in excitement and anticipation.

Rusty Neon: Instead of complaining all the time about the hard work and dedication of the organisers, why don't you do some organising yourself? I've started up the Advice threads, Charming Pixie is organising her threads, Maria has started up some Fun and Games. There are no bosses here. We're all free to initiate our own ideas.

The word is "Marseilles" though. Not "Bologna" or "Visconti".

As long as we stay in the Marseilles tradition, why... someone can even scan the FOURNIER cards, if they feel so inclined.

 

[Diana]

-Why do most people write epees and on my Hadar deck it says espees?

Hundreds of words which used to be written with an "s", don't have an "s" anymore. The French codified and started making strict rules about spelling during the French Revolution. (And now they have an Academy that lords over the French language like snappy guard-dogs. Stuffy old men - and a few women - who dress all funny and are full of their self-importance. Most amusing to see.)

I can give you many many examples of words that had an "s" in them in the Middle Ages that has now disappeared. Many of these words still have a quaint hint in them that there was an "s" once, because they have, for instance, a circonflex accent (little hat) on the vowel preceeding the missing "s". But if the "s" came after an "e", then the "e" received an accent called an accent "aigu". (This is not the case of ALL the words, but many.)

For instance, Espées has become épées. (accent aigu.)
Escu, became écu. (accent aigu)
Baston, became bâton (accent cironflex)
Espaule, became épaule. (accent aigu) (translation: shoulder).
Hospital, became hôpital. (But one still says hospitalier, for hospitable... so it hasn't disappeared completely from the language.)

I could go on an on.

The history and evolution of French spelling and grammar is absolutely fascinating. And I mean that.

(Also to be remembered: French was not spoken all over the French territory. People used their Regional languages and most could not speak French at all. People forget this today.)

 

[smleite]

Oh my.

Just want to say, for the sake of clarity, that I’ve been posting on Let’s Marseilles threads since the very beginning, and always used a Grimaud. Well, maybe I have used the Fournier once. As to this latter, it’s also the cheapest Marseilles deck one can find in Portugal, and I don’t love it to bits, but – contrary to Diana – I like it more everyday. Because this deck always serves me so well, being uncomplicated, straight, honest and unpretentious. Visually, it is not very appealing, at least to my aesthetic values, but even that makes me feel sympathetic. Poor little deck, and so user-friendly!

Also wanted to say that it is so agreeable to share Marseilles readings. We have so much fun (don’t we?), and we learn so much. Stick to the essence, don’t get lost in the form.

Silvia