Wondering: A short list of Marseille conundrums...

[Kissa]

OMG!!!

I was aware of the TdM users vs RWS users words war and now I discover the REAL TdM users vs Restored TdM users fight.

Does it stop? Ever??

I am a new user of TdM. OOOOOPS I mean Hadar user. Should I apologize? Will my readings ever get credit as I am not handling the Bible of TdM (Conver) which, at my very low point of spiritual evolution (come on, the gal owns 40 RWS decks, be patient...), is a pain to my eyes?

I was happy to step in this new reading circle "Let's Marseille". But it isn't any different from others then? Just arguing and arguing again about who's right, who knows better, who's read the most, who was first, who owns the real deal, who knows the truth? It is depressing and believe me, sad for the enthusiastic beginner I am.

I am very uneducated and unsophisticated in that TdM matter (among many others) but I appreciate maria's efforts to scan all 78 cards of Hadar deck and she deserves many thanks. THANK YOU, maria

Kissa

edited to change CharmingPixie's name to maria42airam's since she's the one who did the scanning (my mistake, why are there so many different ppl here anyway?! )! Rendons à César ce qui est à César...

 

[Moongold]

OMG!!!

I was aware of the TdM users vs RWS users words war and now I discover the REAL TdM users vs Restored TdM users fight. Does it stop? Ever??
Kissa

Not here, Kissa.

There is no more naturally tribal lot of people.

 

[Diana]

Kissa: In time, you will make up your own mind. Does the debating here bother you? I find it fascinating... It has certainly never depressed me.

Fluffy bunny stuff is mostly concentrated in other boards on this forum. The Historical section is usually NOT fluffy-bunny (thank god....).

The Conver is considered to be the "true" canon for some people... and for others (like myself), we believe it to be only one version of the Tarot - the version of Nicolas Conver... whoever he was (I love the Conver Tarot - I do some translations for Alain Bocher on it, and when he speaks of it, one feels one is sprouting wings and learning to fly - but I don't consider it to be the one and only Tarot that should be used for The Prime Example).

My advice when it comes to the Tarot of Marseilles, is to listen to everyone's arguments very carefully, and then decide for yourself what is closest to the truth or not.

If you don't want to get involved in such discussions, because you find them useless, then that's also fine. That means you've made up your mind what is important in the Marseilles FOR YOU!!!

And that is all that counts.

Debating on Aeclectic is already difficult enough as it is.... at least here we are able to do it without everyone walking away and cancelling their membership because they don't agree with other people.

 

[Rusty Neon]

The Conver is considered to be the "true" canon for some people... and for others (like myself), we believe it to be only one version of the Tarot - the version of Nicolas Conver... whoever he was (I love the Conver Tarot - I do some translations for Alain Bocher on it, and when he speaks of it, one feels one is sprouting wings and learning to fly - but I don't consider it to be the one and only Tarot that should be used for The Prime Example).

I agree. The other patterns (Dodal, Noblet, Payen, ...) are worth checking out too! I along with several others on this list (including Diana) were able to get ahold of the otherwise-unobtainable Dodal 1701 photoreproduction (Dusserre) through Kenji. (((Kenji)))). For a Dodal-patterned modern redrawing, I would recommend the recently out-of-print US Games Carta Mundi TdM, which is still available in stores if you look around. The Carta Mundi is among my favourite decks.

It would be wonderful to see photoreproduction decks of Payen and Noblet decks and, of course, to have the Dodal (Dusserre) back in print.

 

[le pendu]

It would be wonderful to see photoreproduction decks of Payen and Noblet decks and, of course, to have the Dodal (Dusserre) back in print.

I couldn't agree with you more Rusty Neon, these decks should be reprinted!

Personally, I'm most interested in the Noblet. I was lucky enough to get the Dusserre Dodal, so until a complete Noblet is available, that will be my deck of choice.

robert

 

[Moongold]

I am a new user of TdM. OOOOOPS I mean Hadar user. Should I apologize? Will my readings ever get credit as I am not handling the Bible of TdM (Conver) which, at my very low point of spiritual evolution (come on, the gal owns 40 RWS decks, be patient...), is a pain to my eyes?

Welcome also Kissa ~

I have three Marseilles versions and very much enjoy using them. I prefer the sound of Chopin to La Marseillaise though.

My first deck was the Conver which I struggled with initially. Now I have a Fournier and a Hadar. Am quite fond of the Conver now and appreciate its historical significance. At first however, it seemed petrified .

Look forward to your posts.

Moongold

 

[Major Tom]

The Conver is considered to be the "true" canon for some people... and for others (like myself), we believe it to be only one version of the Tarot - the version of Nicolas Conver... whoever he was (I love the Conver Tarot - I do some translations for Alain Bocher on it, and when he speaks of it, one feels one is sprouting wings and learning to fly - but I don't consider it to be the one and only Tarot that should be used for The Prime Example).

My advice when it comes to the Tarot of Marseilles, is to listen to everyone's arguments very carefully, and then decide for yourself what is closest to the truth or not.

Ahh, Diana, thank you for this.

I love these sort of discussions. These discussions certainly inform my own interpretation of the Tarot of Marseilles. Even derisory comments are welcome. I do know something of my value. So what do you think Rusty, Le Pendu, Kissa, Silvia, Moongold, Wolfy, Shallot, Jmd, and others?

I'd love to see a photoreproduction of the Payen. Greyscale is sorta limiting. Though I've done some experiments with colourising.

 

[Moongold]

Sometimes I think that people study the Marseilles as an artefact which is fine.

However, I am am not sure that you need that level of understanding to read with it beautifully and effectively. People who love the historical detail down to knowing when each leaf was drawn may be excellent readers. I am not denying that at all.

I love history but in the Marseilles threads there do seem to be quite a few wars and people do get quite territorial at times. This, of course, may be fun and meaningful but makes me think of parallel processes and people acting out the history books - perhaps human nature after all..

Each to his own view, however.

 

[Moongold]

An afterthought with regard to history: People tied to history sometimes think that there are certain traditions that need always apply.

I wonder whether this is always the case and whether in some ways it prohibits contemporary relevancy. For example, Le Mat is on a path. The path could well be a cliff top, or something that he could fall off. He is not really looking where he's going and could just end up in the void. I do remember in my early days of Marseilles being taken to task for suggesting this LOL. I am sure there might be more sophisticated examples.

Symbols have meaning according to context and our own understanding, yes or no? . There should be no prescriptions, yes or no?

I am not decrying tradition at all. Often this is lovely and appropriate. Sometimes, however, we can step outside it.

I know this is not a new argument here

 

[jmd]

There are various considerations which certainly make their way into the interpretations and the numerous ways the images may be seen and understood as living and transforming allegories.

It may very well be, then, that the Mat or Fou is indeed heading towards a cliff. The point of 'criticism' (I use that term in its most positive sense), however, is that once the interpretative reflection or experience is included in a deck's imagery, it becomes itself more fixed.

This is my main criticism of, for example, the Camoin-Jodorowsky deck I nonetheless have no hesitation in recommending. In their deck, it is not the wonderful subtleties mentioned by Lee and others such as the buttons on the Hanged Man that are, for me, in any way problematic, but rather the removal of the ambiguity of the lower personage falling in the Tower card: in other Marseille decks, the ambiguity allows for either a fall from out of an unseen door, or from the top, but this flexibility is removed.

Personally, I do not consider any of the Marseille decks to be the cannon, but rather consider each to be like one of the blossoms unveiling itself on the Tarot plant - each a manifestation from its Ür-form.