View Full Version : Skeptical

Deus Ex Machina
24-06-2004, 12:57
In order to believe something, I need some sort of scientific explanation - not proof, just a vague explanation that says 'its possible.' Either that, or I have to instinctually feel that something is real, it just has to click. Astrology never 'clicked' for me. I don't have a gut feeling that tells me it works. However, I did have a vague scientific explanation that allowed me to have some belief in Astrology. Mainly, that we know each planet and star has its own magnetic 'resonance' which DOES reach earth, and which could concievably affect the brain. Afterall, the moon does affect the tides, and likely has a major psychological effect on humans. This idea that the magnetic resonance of planets affects the human mind at (or before) birth, and thus creates the personality types of astrology seemed to make sense to me - especially after listening to recordings of each planet's frequency taken by NASA. But a few days ago, I was thinking about astrology after buying a book on the subject for a friend, and realized that my explanation had a major hole in it. Sure, the resonance of the planets may contribute to determining part of the personality, but the effect of such a resonance would be miniscule compared to the effects of a person's genetics, their upbringing, what food their mom ate while pregnant, and don't forget all of the other sorts of radio-waves and signals which now fill the air in the modern age. Suddenly, the explanation I had created is gone, and without an explanation or a gut feeling, I simply cannot believe. If anyone has any argument for astrology that might persuade me otherwise, please share it.

Rusty Neon
24-06-2004, 14:06
Here's some bedtime reading:


24-06-2004, 21:44
Here's an interesting article about why scientists' conclusions about astrology should not necessarily be taken at face value:


-- Lee

24-06-2004, 21:54
Also here's an article which discusses a possible rationale for astrology which doesn't rely on scientifically-verifiable effects:


-- Lee

25-06-2004, 07:27
Why do you need 'scientific proof' for belief? Science is only one way of looking at the world - a materialist way of cause and effect. Yet even science has admitted that there are somethings that are difficult to explain. Moreover there is a long history of scientists refusing to look at the evidence for all sorts of things - shifting the orthodox view in science is difficult.

There's a good book by Geoffery Cornelius called 'Moment of Astrology' in which he makes out a very good case for Astrology as a means of divination - not a science. That is not to devalue it but to revalue it - it's a different order of things than science.

isthmus nekoi
25-06-2004, 08:09
I'm w/Minderwiz here to an extent. My 2 cents worth:

When you really really start trying to wonder about how any of this business - tarot, astrology etc - works, you start running into one of the basic splits in Western discourse b/w Mind and Matter. Way too complex an issue to get into here, but I would look into debates and how many different cultures and philosophical schools have explored the split, relationship, union (or lack of division!!) etc of the material and phenomenological mind before putting all of one's chips into the Western scientific paradigm. It's worth trying to wrap your head around b/c your understanding of the relationship b/w mind and body effectively colours the way you understand responsibility, free will, and a whole myriad of really really fundementally (sp?) important issues that we tap into when we divinate. To be honest, I never truly understood any of this stuff except when I was half awake but it's worth the mental effort :P

25-06-2004, 08:54
I've been studying, using and teaching astrology for over thirty years. The bottom line is that IT WORKS. It works within the bounds of what it can do and what it is. In my experience I only had one instance in which I wondered why it didn't work -- then I discovered it was my own limitations that had gotten in the way.

I had a daughter that was born within a couple hours of a Solar Eclipse. Everyone knows that this often signifies one who lacks initiative, tends to quietude, seems to have a low level of energy, etc. This was generally true. However, I had a difficult time doing any predictive work with her charts -- she seemed to be unaffected by astrology other than in the most general way. Then I discovered that her life could be read using a full-moon chart with her birth chart -- whatever planet in the full moon chart triggered her birth chart signified what was happening in her life.

The point is that everyone can resonate to certain components of "astrology" but not necessarily everything. Its a complex subject but, be most assured, it really works. Dave.

Red Emma
25-06-2004, 09:13
I had Deus's feelings until a friend of mine printed out a yearly "return" for me quite a while back. In it were several events which my friend did not know about. Especially remarkable was the return's information about the fact that, when I was very young, I had spent several years with a family which was not my own. There were other things in it about my past life which reduced my skeptical reserves way down to, 'I'll be damned. Well, maybe. HHhhmmm. Worth looking into.'

In addition, since my graduate work is in Urban Affairs-City-Planning-Public Policy stuff, I learned several research methods in additon to the standard scientific method. When one's tracking such things as population movement, a neighborhood's reaction to potential policy changes and the like, one needs alternate methods of measurement.

For instance, I recently saw the movie, "Never Cry Wolf" -- or maybe, "Don't Cry Wolf -- in which a biologist-type scientist was sent into the Alaskan wilds to identify the source of food for wolf packs in the area. Since cariboo herds were diminishing, the public policy makers wanted to know if wolves were responsible. The biologist lived in the area, by himself, for several months while he investigated the concept.

Anyhow, subsequent astrological yearly returns have pretty much convinced me that someone, somewhere is keeping track of my life. Can even project it. Since I believe in a benevolent God/Goddess/Spirit I don't feel intimidated by it. I keep hoping I'll find the time and the energy to study astrology myself, but it hasn't happened yet.

25-06-2004, 10:30
If you do any study of quantum physics at all, then you realize that the physical world is not as it seems - the nature of reality is stranger that we can imagine. Small particles photographed in 2-places at the same time ...and that nothing is really solid, at the sub-atomic level there is only space, an idea.

How does this affect astrology? I believe, according to theoretical physics, we live in a "holographic universe. " Tarot and astrology both are allow us to access the collective unconscious - and read what the external world tells about the internal world. I think anything could be used to access this realm, reading tea leaves, toothpicks, the weather.

Tarot and astrology, however, have centuries of knowledge and study behind them, passed down from generation to generation. They allow us a beautiful, elegant and metaphorical "way in" to this realm of spirit.

For all the years I have studied astrology I am still astounded by his accuracy. Astrology tells a story about our lives and our world. It shows us where there is "energy" in our lives, it reveals the lessons we have learn - it is like having a map to see where we are and where we are going.

You don't have to "believe" in astrology for it to work. I encourage you to at least give astrology a chance to see what surprises and truth it might reveal for you!

25-06-2004, 11:18
I have started thinking of things in terms of many realities, and more than one truth. It seems since I came to this decision/conclusion I have greatly relaxed. People now say things like nothing upsets me (which really isn't true) because of this attitude change. When I go through my chart it seems I am almost a cliche. it has helped me, however when I do it with my husband it doesn't click as well. Perhaps it just works/influences some more than others...or perhaps it is my limited skill in the subject, or even the particular reference material I am using

26-06-2004, 02:46
Originally posted by dadsnook2000
I had a daughter that was born within a couple hours of a Solar Eclipse. Everyone knows that this often signifies one who lacks initiative, tends to quietude, seems to have a low level of energy, etc. This was generally true. However, I had a difficult time doing any predictive work with her charts -- she seemed to be unaffected by astrology other than in the most general way. Then I discovered that her life could be read using a full-moon chart with her birth chart -- whatever planet in the full moon chart triggered her birth chart signified what was happening in her life.

Dads Nook,
I'm interested in this Full Moon chart - I've never heard of it. I was also born during (or very close to) a solar eclipse, and you just described me to a T. What is a Full Moon chart and how do you do it?

26-06-2004, 05:33
I agree very much with Dave - Astrology really works. I also think it doesn't matter too much what system you use - providing that you are systematic - you read the 'omens' in the same way each time (allowing for intuitive leaps and insights).

Astrology is not simply a set of rules applied - the Astrologer him/herself plays a divinatory role. Incidentally that implies that there are people for whom we (as individuals) are unable to read - I don't read for myself and I have difficulty reading for my wife unless something really important is involved - I find I can do horary charts for her but transits/progressions don't seem to work. I also find I get more out of solar or lunar returns for her but it's still hard going. So I can understand Dave's problem with his daughter. It's quite possible another astrologer could read for her, just as another could read for my wife.

I presume that Dave uses the chart for each full moon (as I or Isthmus cast for the monthly full moon reports) and selects the dominant planet(s) and then sees what role if any they play as transits (or progressions) to his daughter's natal chart. I'd also be interested in hearing his comments and experiences with the technique because it struck a chord with me - my wife is sensitive to the full moon and I've only half heartedly looked at links between the full moon chart and her natal chart.

26-06-2004, 05:36
Just an afterthought as I posted here - although my wife was not born at a full moon she is sensitive to the full moon - it's odd that I find difficulty reading for her and Dave find's difficulty in reading for his daughter who is tuned to the full moon.

Perhaps we need to thing about our approaches to people who have a strong lunar link.

27-06-2004, 02:04
I use my astrology software to do a chart for the Full Moon using my locality. Then I call up my daughter's chart and show it or print it as a bi-wheel chart. You can orientate the double chart based on either the birth chart ascendant or the full moon chart ascendant depending upon your preference.

For a Solar Eclipse birth, we are dealing with a perfect New Moon birth (within a few degrees) -- this "dark of the moon" phase is what equates to quietness, low energy and lack of initiative. It does sensitize the chart owner to the sun-moon cycle. I'm sure that someone born very close to full moon or who had the moon at an angle would tend to be sensitive to the lunar cycle. As an example, I have the moon conjunct my IC and I do exhibit great moodyness and sensitivity to lunar cycles -- I also have a Cancer ascendant.

When reading such charts I look at what natal houses the Sun- Moon axis falls into -- this becomes an area of focus as a general rule. Then I look to see what natal planets are aspected -- this brings other energies into that house-axis focus. Finally, I look to see what natal patterns, if any, that have proven to be activated in the past are triggered by the full-moon axis -- this brings established response patterns out. Dave.

27-06-2004, 02:25
Like Minderwiz and others, I have found that transits are not always indicative of an event or action taken by the chart owner. This can be due to several reasons; the person's birth chart does not have a major aspect pattern between the planet that is being transited and the transiting planet, the person has not established a place in their life for that influence to be played out or just is not sensititive to it, real life circumstances and people in the person's life combine to not require that energy to be experienced.

For events and actions, and their prediction, the most reliable tool that I have found is "precession corrected solar returns." I don't concentrate only on the solar return chart -- I precess the angles throughout the year by daily increments. This requires some time and space to explain fully, but a simple test can demonstrate the value to precessing angles from one year's solar return to the next. Measuring from your solar return (birth) date, go forward in time by four months and two weeks (on average); this will be the time where anything that is active in your solar return chart will reach a crises point and challenge you. Go forward approximately nine months and one/two weeks; this will mark a resolvement point where you can complete the work of your solar return chart and reap its rewards.

Now, it also possible to do things ahead of your Solar Return to give it shape and direction. This might seem like a magical ritual to some but its just common sense. You have a continuing solar cycle that is very powerful, all you have to do is learn to read it. This technique is easy for experienced astrologers but difficult for those who are just learning. There is software, like Halloran's which I use, that supposedly does this -- but it doesn't. I tried to get the developers of that software to incorporate the calculations and charting needed but they just didn't take the time to understand it and just developed the standard old stuff.

It is necessary, in our studines, to demand that whatever we use has to work well almost all of the time. If an astrological technique does not work for you then I suggest you drop it. Use only what works. For me, I have thrown away signs, houses and most aspects -- and as a result my astrological predictive work has greatly improved. Now, I still know about and use, where it is relevant, all of the classical tools -- but I'm experienced enough to know that not every tool works for every situation. Dave.

01-07-2004, 01:48

Thanks for that exposition - very interesting and helpful.

My wife's Moon is indeed angular being conjunct her MC - so this would seem to fit with your ideas and I'll try using them over the next few months and let you know how things go.

I also note your point about Halloran's response. I suggested to them that they use 'classical' antiscia and contrascia in their program instead of their 'declination' variety. The former are of tremendous use to the horary astrologer and I'm sure it would increase their sales - seems I got the same response but we live in hope.

However the software is generally very good and I wouldn't shell out the sort of money asked for other programs (at least till I win the lottery!).

01-07-2004, 01:49
Wow, Dadsnook, thank you for teaching me about this! How enlightening! I was always told as a sun/moon Cappy, my emotions were "combust," either totally cold or out of control (I'm more the ice queen). But I've always been very affected by the lunar cycle, and also very affected by the seasons/weather. My mood is very much dependant on the weather and season. Now I know why! I suppose it's a good thing I'm a Pagan - so I pay a lot more attention to the seasons, and try to work with their energy!

01-07-2004, 10:59
Dear List, I'll be away for a week or so. Any questions will have to wait until then. Dave.

01-07-2004, 21:56
have a good vacation Dave!!!!!!!!!!!

08-07-2004, 03:54
I'm just just JUST started an interest in astrology. I've always been half interested in my own astrology, and think there is something definitely to it, although I've never had a "clear" reading, in that, it was so full of this planet in this house, and that planet or moon in this house, that I had NO idea what they were talking about. And if i asked a question, the person answered me in a belittling way. So I just nodded and didn't ask questions.

Anyways, aside from that, I was talking with a friend (a few months ago) who is VERY scientifical. In fact, I was FLOORED when I found out he was wiccan, due to how "mechanical" he is, how intelligent he is. However, to listen to him talk about metaphysical studies, he breaks it down to science. I asked him what he thought about clairovoyance, mediums, etc. He claims that there HAS to be a scientifical explanation of how and why "these things" work, but that we haven't developed the "radio waves" or active waves (scientifically) to able to pick up the right frequency, but that he is SURE that this works due to picking up on a fine tune frequency, hence, clairovoyance, speaking with spirits, tarot cards, mind reading, predictions, etc, are all apart of this "higher frequency" and that it's up to us to turn up our own interests enough to tune into this frequency. I think of it as, everyone has the ability, the choice to be a scientist, biologist, what have you. A lot of people make the choice to be something else. Some people have added science as a hobby, or another interest along with what their main job is. Some people it's "work" and to others it's "fun". Either you LOVE or HATE chemistry. With the metaphysics in general, you can't say one exists and not the other, that would be similar to saying, biology exists, but physics doesn't. You can't say that astrology works but tarot doesn't. I believe my friend is right, that we haven't developed a machine to pick up as high of a frequency that the "psychics" work from, but I do believe, that one day, there will be some way to explain all of this on a scientifical level. To say it doesn't exist, or that it's hogbosh b/c science can't prove it, well, we couldn't prove a lot of things for a long time scientifically, because it took us a lot of time to get that evolved. Look at how long the human existence has been around, look at compared to that, when we started to look at things in a scientifical view point, look at when technology REALLY took off (not until the 1980's). All though there were quite a few scientifical genuises that had major breakthroughs in the last 2 centuries, but they were milestones (to say the least) in science. Since the 1980's, we evolve to a higher form of technology every 2 years or so, and every about 5 years, something totally different is invited, within a few years after the invention, it's in every common house hold. Look at cd players, cell phones, computers, these things were not "common" until the last 10 yrs or so. Just because cell phones didn't exist back in the 1950's, or even the 1700 b.c. doesn't mean that the frequency that cell phones use didn't exist. We just didn't have the science to know about it, much less, after finding it, finding a use for it. Granted, this process involves satelite, but then again, look at the science developed to use satelite, to build it, what it took to get it out there, etc. Ten years ago, the cell phone was BARELY invinted, and it was a big blockish phone, bigger then your regular house phone. Anyways, the point is, we (thank God) are still higher evolved then our technology (or at least I like to think so) because we do not have the technology or the scientifical resources to explain psychic phenonema. However, to enough people, psychics have proven themselves time and time again, and have been around since mankind. There are more psychics in this day an age for several reasons. 1. our common society is more open to it, 2. it's easily available in local bookstores to purchase books on studies of the subject, 3. their is a HUGE spike of psychic involvement and learning, more people "tuning in" to this frequency. I like to think that one day, what we consider "psychic and unusual" will be the normal. I think that our way of living will be much easier, simpler, and friendlier. We will know how each feels instead of conflicting our feelings with words. When we can telepathically communicate easily, then that's when I think we will truly evolve metaphysically. I truly believe (especially looking at the huge spike of interest in the metaphysics) that one day our society will succumb to this. Maybe it's my way of dreaming of world peace, but regardless, back to the original subject. Just because I don't understand, nor seen it "proven" for myself, the scientifical reason of why this rose is red, and that rose is yellow, doesn't mean that I don't accept the fact that there is a perfectly good, scientifical reason for this.

Ya know, this is almost the opposit of "because God says it's so". I was just thinking back to the time of Aristotle, and I think of him as the "Father of science" because I don't believe that science (as we know it today) really existed until Aristotle came about. Before that, we just assumed things were the way they were because that's the way the Dieties wanted it to be. Now we choose to believe in a faith because something about it resonates, were as before, humans use to make sacrifices, and truly believed that these sacrifices to the Dieties is what made a difference between a good crop and a bad crop, where really, maybe it was just bad soil, lack of rain, or perhaps a really bad drought. Regardless, what we left up to the Gods at one point, we now have scientifical reasons, and now there are skeptics about the metaphysical (a reverse transformation). I believe that there is a scientifical explanation for both sides, but just because we don't have the technology to pick up on the waves used for psychic awareness doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Which is also why I believe that tools can be very helpful in tuning into these waves (such as crystals, cards, etc).

I hope this helps in some way, and don't get me wrong, I think skeptics are great people. I prefer to read for a skeptic then I do for a complete believer that will make anything I say to them fit somehow. I'm a big enough person to say sometimes I'm wrong, but I've seen myself be right so often (including solving a murder mystery involving an acquaintance) that I can't deny that there is something to the metaphysics, and that I"m tuning into something. Until we find a way to pick up on these "higher" frequencies, then there is no way to "prove" what psychics do, except to leave it up to you to choose to believe in it or not. Either you love chemistry or you don't, either you believe or you don't. I encourage skeptics, heck I'm skeptical when I get a reading done for myself, but I do believe in the possibility of, the process of it, and I continue to work as a psychic myself.

Take care!


08-07-2004, 05:17

Thanks for taking the trouble to share these views and experiences. There's an awful lot of material there to think on and reflect.

I too was trained as a (social) scientist and indeed spent time learning the philosophy of science and empiricism. Science is an extremely useful approach to the world around us and has led to many discoveries that have accelerated the development of our civilisation (though not all have been positively used).

I have no doubt that there is a 'natural' astrology that can be (and eventually will be) demonstrated. There's enough evidence from studies such as the Gauquelins' or the work of Percy Seymour. However when it comes to the use of Astrology to 'read' situations or 'trends', I tend to take this as more divination than scientific work. The reason lies in the role of the Astrologer as a 'reader of signs', which are not only literal but also allegorical. Moreover these signs tend to be context specific - they relate to a specific person in a specific situation, or a specific horary question, etc.

Science works in generalising from individual cases which have a very high degree of commonality. It requires that the law of large numbers applies and that results are replicable - if we conduct the study again we get the same answers (within statistical limits). Astrological divination is rarely replicable, because it is based on highly differentiated individual circumstances. The Astrologer who reads the signs is not an outside observer - he or she is directly involved in the process. The same combination of individual, circumstances and Astrologer will almost certainly never happen again - we are into individual case Astrology.

This reason on its own is enough to make a scientific explanation of Astrology very unlikely. There may however be a psychological explanation and there is almost certainly a 'religious' or 'divinatory' explanation. The issue in effect comes down to the meaning and interpretation of signs, both to the person for whom the reading is done and for the Astrologer who does the reading.

The reading may well yield very useful information for the 'subject' of the reading and this may well help them in their decision making - there is more to 'evidence' than simply scientific evidence and 'reasons' do not necessarily have to be based on empirical investigation.

The above paragraph also suggests that Astrology is not deterministic - we are not saying what will be but what might be - the actions of the individual can change the outcomes. In a real sense Astrology furthers free will by providing evidence for decisions about what to do.

08-07-2004, 07:14
Exactly! Regardless of how "you work", its proven that astrology, tarot, mediumship, palmistry, it's all "real", it all works. When I do readings, I do give specifics, details (regardless of which approach I use, wether it's palmistry, tarot, or mediumship), names, situations, past and future events. It's all real, it's all validating information, that is to say, the client has often validated the detailed information that we pick up, regardless of what method, or tools you use. I personally am not very scientifical myself, to me, a red rose is a beautiful flower, and I have no desire to research why it's red. I've never been a person to question "how" something works, but more "why" do we choose to believe in the things we do. I've always been fascinated with psychology, the paranormal, and developement of the conciousness, subconcious, etc. Anything to do with thoughts, feelings, emotions, and disecting them to "why" we are the way we are. Faith, belief in a higher power, or even the superstitious has proven itself through millions who have witnessed, or experienced it. Everyone, (and I REALLY believe this) that everyone has had some kind of spiritual awareness, wether it's playing parlor games like stiff as a board, light as a feather, messing around with a wedge board on your 13th b-day, or your aunt/grandma or mother read tarot cards, and you grew up around it...everyone has had their own experience to some level with spiritual energy. It is indeed a part of our lives! Most of our society is easily scared by metaphysical phenonema, and choose to turn their backs to it, or reason it in some way to be a "trick" somehow. We are quick to be skeptical, and try to figure out "how this is done" which is good, we should question it, and look at it from all different angles, it's how we will eventually be able to figure out exactly (scientifically) of how this works. Most people, once they "fall of the bike" they choose not to try again. They get scared by what they can't explain, or what they don't know. It is and can be very scary to bravely walk into a dark living room, by yourself, to see "whose there" after being awaken by things going bump in the night. There are multiple ways of picking up on details of peoples lives, the lines of your palm, the astrology of your birth chart, speaking with the deceased, or simply laying the cards on the table. These are each different schools of thought, just like even in one science field, you have several different fields of thought. Look at philosophy, psychology, and (as I'm sure) many other sciences out there. There is more then one way to do this, it's just a matter of interest. While one person may like the studies of Freud, and Freudian thought, another person tends to enjoy and resonate with the school of thought of Pavlow, and behaviorial psychology. We can argue back and forth "which is method is more thorough" but the bottom line is, which ever method helps you help others the best is the correct method for you. I don't hardly know a thing about astrology, except my own birth sign, obviously, sagittarian. Other then that, I seem to work very well so far with spirit communications, and cards. I'm reluctant, but somewhat interested in looking more into astrology, and reading charts, but this is the first time that I've come over to this section and looked through the astrology section. I believe that regardless of what you use to help give you that initial boost, that it's easy to communicate with the metaphysical energy in order to "pull more" information. I do not doubt one bit that the birth chart will show major events (as well as minor things), I was just (personally) really turned off from it after a bad experience with an astrology reader, and I never could make any sense out of most of it, until I got a book that was all about sagitarians. Everything in that book resonated a truth inside of me, and these were min-nute details about my life, some of these things I would never tell another person, some were pretty generalized. You run across both extremes though when you dive into this type of study. That is to say, you see the vague readers and the detailed readers, you find the teachers, and the people who love it but just don't "get it". Like I said, either you love chemistry or you don't, just b/c I happen to be talented with a deck of cards, and I easily can make conversations with the dead coherent with the living doesn't mean I"m good with palmistry or astrology, but I do want to at least learn a little, which is why I'm so greatful for this site.

Thank You Minderwiz for your long explanation as well. I hope to have more conversations with you, and learn more from you! Thank you!


08-07-2004, 23:24
Thanks Sagitarian,

Yes I look forward to other discussions - just post away with any observations or questions you might have.

I tend to be slightly sceptical about the psychological approach, perhaps more because I find psychologists 'hi-jacking' Astrology for their own practices and trying to get rid of the bits that don't fit their own training, theories and approaches.

That being said, I too have a fascination for the workings of the mind and agree with you that all of us have psychic potential that we could develop if we choose. Though probably not to an equal level of attainment.

11-07-2004, 04:14
I do like your statement about striving to be specific. If we talk in generalities all of the time then we tend not to serve our clients or ourselves. In order to learn, in order to prove to ourselves which tools work and which do not, we need to take the risk of being specific where we can. I'm not advocating going out on a limb to be dramatic.

We push the envelope, we stretch our attempts and understanding -- and we grow. If we ask more we may receive more of ourselves. Yes, pushing limits and being specific works in Tarot and in Astrology. I never pussyfoot around, if I feel that something applies or needs to be said then I say it. Dave.

By the way, I'm back for a few days.

11-07-2004, 05:43

Glad to have you back again!

isthmus nekoi
12-07-2004, 07:51
Also glad to see you back, Dave :) I agree about striving to be specific when thinking of astrology for divinatory purposes. (Else what use can astrology be in terms of prediction???)

I also think that astrology (and tarot!) serves a broader purpose than predictions. It is a holistic system, not an empirical one, and as such it can also hold a lot of power in representing the world in its ambiguity or vagueness.

12-07-2004, 08:40
isthmus nekoi,
Yes, Astrology and Tarot (and other such systems also) have much broader and actually more valuable applications such as personal understanding, growth and awareness of ones place within (and as part of) the universe.

My focus on predictions was merely to make the point that one should seek to sharpen ones skills, knowledge and practice as much as possible. Demanding specific results or confirmation is one key way to both obtain greater insight and to shed tools that are not contributing to our knowledge or service to others.

Along that line, I'm still curious as to whether anyone has done their solar return chart for the past year and if they have checked out what happened 4 months and 2 weeks (more or less) later and 9 months and 1 or 2 weeks later (more or less) in terms of being challenged (a crises) or resolved by what was suggested in the solar return chart. Dave.

crystal cove
20-07-2004, 01:25
Great post Sagitarian! I've always felt that there is alot more to science than most people would believe. I think everything can be explained scientifically, it's just a matter of when. Most, if not all of the ideas that have been explained in the last 150 years or so would have gotten people hung centuries ago.

I can't wait to see what will be proven in the future.