Darkest Devil

Wow, Arcano Maximó! Very eloquent...

...but you are not converting me. That Devil is my (dangerous!) friend - he has been helping me shift those taboos and enjoy myself - as well as get to some very deep stuff for years. For an artist, the Devil is essential. He's the one who has no morals, after all: and morals - or rather, moralism - kill art. He's the one that opens the door to the shadow side, which he lights. He is Lucifer, Prince of Light. He refuses authority and laughs at the sacred - why? So we don't become fundamentalists, or obey too blindly. He is the archetype of the Disobedient.

But of course, if I were a banker, it might all be very different

"...but you are not converting me". AHÁ, Then the Devil will take you to the Hell where you will have sex & more sex for ever and ever....to the end of time!!!!!!!!!!Hey, not bad at all!HAPPY YOU!!!LOL!
But not joking, i guess that you are right, but i don't know why we see shadows as a bad thing. I enjoy what you are talking about too, and of course i hate foundamentalist, but i think i'm talking about another mean. For example, chamans use "peyote" to fly to the other side to rescue souls or read in the Akashic files, but that is diferent of to be a drug adict, when you may kill by that(we have in Uruguay a very big problem with the pre-cocaine drug called "pasta base" and children practically bump their brains with it). I think the key is in what the Justice card teachs: EQUILIBRIUM. Or even what the Fool and the Strengh card show. But for me the Devil is a mirage. While we knows that, no problem. I cant't believe in Lucifer. That's the same of to believe in that G@D has competence in power, and that in a distraction an angel falls down!!!I believe the only devil is the though of "i want to be more of you". We can't acepted it or not, obey or not, but the rules are there and function in every thing. And the main rule is Love i guess. Even so we have free will, untill the time we have to response, we must be responsible the same, and pay ( even with pain), in this encarnations or other. This is a thing i see for every where i look. For me there are low astral spirits in a low astral side and around us. But not a Lucifer or Satan. I guess in The Devil cardis shown a simbol. What about you, do you believe in a certain fallen angel fighting with the G@D?

ArcanoMáximo said:

AHÁ, Then the Devil will take you to the Hell where you will have sex & more sex for ever and ever....to the end of time!!!!!!!!!!Hey, not bad at all!HAPPY YOU!!!LOL!

Click to expand...

From your mouth to G-d's ear (or the Devil's)! That would suit me much better than sitting on a wet cloud with a harp

ArcanoMáximo said:

For example, chamans use "peyote" to fly to the other side to rescue souls or read in the Akashic files, but that is diferent of to be a drug adict, when you may kill by that(we have in Uruguay a very big problem with the pre-cocaine drug called "pasta base" and children practically bump their brains with it).

Click to expand...

Yes you are right. I'm not saying the Devil is easy. The Shadow is dangerous. Why? Transgression and breaking taboo is addictive, because it gives us such a rush, such a high. A shaman using peyote will not become addicted (one hopes!) because he is not doing it for the high. But those who use "devil's tools" just for kicks (whether it be drugs, violence, sex, etc.) can become addicted to the high. Do you know the story of the Devil and the Red Shoes? That is a story of unwise desire and addiction - the girl just wanted the red shoes, whatever the consequences...

ArcanoMáximo said:

I think the key is in what the Justice card teachs: EQUILIBRIUM. Or even what the Fool and the Strengh card show.

Click to expand...

All these are important. Justice is a lesson we need for everything, and if we are to accept the lessons of the Devil, more than ever! It is funny you mention the Fool and Strength. Le Fol/Fool (in the Marsella deck) represent my spirit guide in my visualised (shamanic) travels. He is certainly very helpful. And Strength is the card that shows our struggle with the instinctual (which is one side of the Devil) - and therefore is a good card to have along as well. She is also Love in its universal aspect - and Lust: therefore a card close to that side of the Devil.

ArcanoMáximo said:

For me there are low astral spirits in a low astral side and around us. But not a Lucifer or Satan. I guess in The Devil card is shown a simbol. What about you, do you believe in a certain fallen angel fighting with the G@D?

Click to expand...

No, I don't - not like that in that simplistic dualist way. I am like you - I see (or rather think) high and low spirits and everyone in between. But in my dreams and my vision travels (shamanistic-type), I encounter many beings who might be associated with the shadow side: but I am not afraid of them all. When I am, I know they are truly dangerous and can harm me. But they too I must meet. How else can we live fully - in this plane of consciousness and in others - if we only meet the light side? Some of the traditional "devilish" beings (e.g. snakes) I don't think are nefarious - they represent something very important - at least for me.

Now on that matter of obedience and transgression. I think there are two types and we were talking about different things. I was thinking about obedience to human-made laws. I want to preserve my capacity to decide whether a law is good or not. If I decide it is not, I don't want to be cowed into submission. Equally - if economic forces are going against certain people, if political decisions are what I consider wrong - I do not have to accept that. I am not a sheep. I think the Devil helps our rebellious nature. He breaks down the blind obedience (in his Lucifer Rebellious Angel aspect).

But of course there are universal laws that I obey. Still, I don't want to obey them blindly. I don't want to love simply because I am told I must. It has to be natural. And in that, the good side of the Devil is to put us in touch with our nature, in all its contradiction. He can help you understand why you hate certain people that the universal law command you to love (though the Devil will not help you love - for that, you need, as you have said, Strength).

I think transgression can be an important thing in a life. So many myths deal with it - from the terrible taboo-breaking myths of Medea or Oedipus, to the fairytales where the law fixed is not explained but the transgression carries sometimes very strong consequences. As you say, we have to pay for everything. That is one of the main lessons of the Devil. There is a price to be paid for disobedience, transgression, breaking a taboo - even if these do not lead to incest, drug addiction or sexual frenzy.

I write. Some of my writings are light and smooth - and funny. Some are dark, violent. Some of them explore transgression and meeting the devil...and for those, even though I am merely the writer, I pay. They are demanding and literally pull out my guts.

I think real art is always a form of transgression, of disobedience. It is often the rebellious spirits that guide the artists, not the obedient ones. In that way, the Devil - who is also Lord of Matter - is more important to artists than any other card in the tarot, alongside - you guessed it! - Strength. For it is in wrestling with the shadows, and in turning his visions into a real material thing that the artist makes his art.

WoW Helvética! a master class yours! I totaly agree with you!

"But in my dreams and my vision travels (shamanistic-type)" astral travels? what impressive! I did one just only one time and never again, even trying, but it was sufficient to "understand". In the middle of the nigth i stand up for a glass of water when i saw my body down there...

Helvética, do you have your books published? Sure i would like to read them!
I'm with you here too because i paint, and i'm a tarotist too, this isn't play with fire?

"That would suit me much better than sitting on a wet cloud with a harp"
i know you're joking but how many people think after passing away will be so!!! I believe the Nirvana may be a place very hard to reach!!!And then what to do? I hope be allowed to continue in service in others ways of evolution. But now don't care about, must be a lot of encarnations in diferents sides and planetaries sistems waiting for me to work yet! But may be in eons of times i'll be an Archangel too, i'm so patience!

ArcanoMáximo said:

"But in my dreams and my vision travels (shamanistic-type)" astral travels? what impressive! I did one just only one time and never again, even trying, but it was sufficient to "understand". In the middle of the nigth i stand up for a glass of water when i saw my body down there...

Click to expand...

I have had a few "accidental" episodes since my childhood. When I was little I thought everyone did, until I mentioned it to my mother and she said I had a great imagination (she seemed pleased I did). But I knew it was not that kind of imagination. It doesn't happen that often, this break in reality when I am precipiated unwillingly somewhere else - but it tends to be somewhere in this plane. But in my post I meant the kind of visions and encounters you get in a trance, which can happen in the spirit world. That I have not been doing for very long, but I find I have a facility for it - though it can be frightening, because sometimes I am attacked.

This morning during a trip I was stabbed by a lot of knife-bearing creatures. A big red man then came along and pulled out my vital organs, one by one, and embraced and kissed them, then brought them up again and placed them back in my body. For my brain, he trepanned my skull, sucked it out and swallowed it, then brought it back up and put it back in my skull. This happened early this morning (European time) before our conversation about the Devil. When I returned - I felt - different. Well, all my organs had been touched, embraced, swallowed! But by what? When I saw your post I could only think of the synchronicity. I think I am "facing my demons" - doing shadow work - at the moment, that is why these things happen in my visions. But I've also been reading about shamanic attacks (my first journey was unbelievably violent, I died a hundred deaths in horrible ways, so afterwards I read about it - I found out it was not unusual). Of course, I'm not a shaman, but I do have some ease to slip into this altered consciousness. I feel I am very much in training - I have no idea why it is I was given this facility: there must be some purpose? But you can see why the Devil card is not all bad to me - it carries some of all this shadow, these difficult but purifying encounters. I could write more but the moderators would have to censor it for taste and X-rate it

ArcanoMáximo said:

Helvética, do you have your books published? Sure i would like to read them!
I'm with you here too because i paint, and i'm a tarotist too, this isn't play with fire?

Click to expand...

I have written for radio, but am writing a book at the moment. Where do you paint from? Do you know? It is to play with fire - but also, with all the elements. I feel I often write from water - the beautiful surface, the waves, or the deep bottom of lakes and oceans. But there are times - yes, from fire. Sorcerer's apprentices...but without that risk-taking, what life can we live? Isn't that also the lesson of the Devil card?

El Vuelo De La Mandrágora

Yes! I’m sure by what you are saying you are an advanced witch! I hope be invited to some of your aquelarres parties some time! I am already polishing my broom !!!

. “I could write more but the moderators would have to censor it for taste and X-rate it”

I didn’t say more about my astral travel for the same reason! Be aware of crazy people around!!!LoL!!!

"Synchronicity" never stop to impressive me too! Is incredible!

All you say remember me a Carlos Castaneda’s script:

"...In fact the art of the sorcerers consists on being subtle to accept ..."

And of course you must pass across the Tonal if you wanna reach the Nagual, but is so hard already be a Hunter, how much more a Warrior with out face our fears!!! How play Fausto withuot sale our souls?!

"the beautiful surface, the waves, or the deep bottom of lakes and oceans"

what a expression!
I think at the proper creative moment ever is fire the element, that of the "thought outside of common line", but the source may to lie in several elements, i agree.

What a great philosophical chat!

Helvetica said:

and morals - or rather, moralism - kill art.

Click to expand...

I must disagree. Some of the world's greatest art has been created in support of morals and religion. Lack of imagination and originality kills art.The monstrous ego of the devil is not particularly original or creative, but mostly self-focused mediocrity and delusion. He makes a lot of noise though.

Dark Inquisitor said:

Some of the world's greatest art has been created in support of morals and religion. Lack of imagination and originality kills art.The monstrous ego of the devil is not particularly original or creative, but mostly self-focused mediocrity and delusion. He makes a lot of noise though.

Click to expand...

No. But I meant moralism, rather than religion per se, which has indeed given us some wonderful art. I do not see the Lord as Light as you do - at least, not only: he is doubled-edged, like all powerful beings. Christianity turned so many gods into "demons", I can't take this devil on Christianity's terms. It is the case of the horned god that was the model for this particular (RWS) Devil.


Máximo, I wouldn't call myself a witch. I just have a mind that is fairly flexible in that way. My challenge is to live in the real world, which is where we have the true struggle with materiality...

Helvi: i hope not have been offensing you, i was just joking. That's because you said "Sorcerer's apprentices..."
i call my self a witch or sorcerer too but not seroiusly, i'm not proper practitioner of the Wiccan religious, i always have been eclectic and free to take what i like of every thought style, but the only thing in what can i call me "fan" is in Tarot, even when the Metaphisycal doctrine call my atention too, but with many reserves. Even so i consider me a relious being since relion for me means "religar", "to be related".

"My challenge is to live in the real world, which is where we have the true struggle with materiality..."

Yes, that's The Devil's lesson i guess, but i think that is not our only challenge. For me we are a lot more than flesh.
I'll add another Carlos Castaneda script just for illustrate my idea, in the Don Juan's voice:

" el hombre es una criatura que está en un viaje de conciencia momentaneamente interrumpido"
The man is a creature(being) that is in a travel of conscience momently interrupted

That's why i said Devil is a mirage. The "material world" for me is an illusion.
The things, the flesh, the density makes our way more easy, but at the bottom we are no more, no less, that Mental Egos evolving in the G@D's Mind. The opossite thought in my and personal position is what The Devils teachs. But obviously i respect everybody else 's thoughts.

No offence at all, Máximo - I like your witchy humour There are some real witches on these boards - I am no way as proficient as they are!

Thank you for your Castaňeda quote - it's a while since I read him! I ought to go back and read some more...I see now where our difference lies. To me, the material world - the microcosm and the macrocosm - are important. As important as the spiritual world, and very linked. It is a fundamental error of the platonists to have seen the material world as lesser: an error which has made human beings very miserable. The soul and the body are equal and work together if they work well. That is one positive lesson the Devil can teach.

It took me a long time to understand this. I grew up very mystical and had to learn to be in my body. I learnt, too, that the highest expression of the body can open to spiritual truth and ecstasy - in sex, but also, in dancing, in skiing, in smelling a flower - in other words, in using one's body to its full, according to its nature. I believe the whole Universe, starting with our mother earth, works that way. Why else would it be so beautiful? When I walk in the mountains and admire the peaks or the tiny blue gentian by the path - I am admiring both their material existence and their spirit. I feel joined to both.

The danger of the Devil is the opposite of the danger of the platonic dream - to be locked in nothing but matter. At its best, our energy moves from matter to spirit, from spirit to matter. The Devil plays its role in this circuit, as long as we do not become addicted to matter and to the hunger for material things, which is only a mask for spiritual famine.