Darkest Devil

[HOLMES]

hmm

I do not see the creator as a double edge sword but there is neither here or there.

why does the devil have no light but a dull torch?

the answer is because the person is not looking for a inner light within them but an outer light outside of them..
and that light doenst' shine as bright as the light within them.
hence they are looking for love outside themselves and joy like sex, eating, drinking, drugs, power, politics.
things that can get them respect and friends but when done to such a nature where the it has a chain on them then they are doing it to the point of self destruction.

 

[ArcanoMáximo]

Then, Helvi, we don't disagree at all. For me spiritual world is the same that material world but just only vibrating at other frecuency, and we sure must enjoy all what you are saying, of course, we must food our body, give him sex when he needs it, etc, that's what i'm mean when saying that for me everything is sacred. After all our destiny is become Magicians, witchs, sorcerers,... whatever be, if we learn to use the true Magic. Sometime we will may materialize things, and then eterialized them if we wish ( do you imagine not to have to clean the plates, by example? taking all from the matrix ideas of everything? from de proper sacred energie and not with so many work as we do now? ). That's why i keep my position in The Devil's card. He is the father of devastation ( ever speaking of him as a type of thought) because he don't give hope none, and then people do the horror things we may see in all history, specially in our times. Sad and fear are his chains, and i agree we must figth, having hopes, because the time is closing up! We see Death for everywhere too, but as the Bible says " you'll not kill", and is true because is unposible kill!, death is a lie, a kharmatic colective lie, for me death is refuse to change, and the devil to fear it, to keep chained, but yes, i'm a man, and is so hard the struggle. But even so i think we must keep it on mind!

 

[ArcanoMáximo]

Holmes
I think that besides one of the reasons as which these Devil does not have a sword but a torch has to be seen with the differences between the suits of Wands and Swords. Across Ace de Swords we are completely thinking and proprietors of our actions, nevertheless across the Ace of Wands do we allow ourselves to go for the impulses, of which it is clearly taken advantage by The Devil, and even increased, whaT do you think? Maybe this one of the reason why Waite change the traditional design? Though some authors say that in original Marseill Tarot also it was a torch and not a double-edged sword, hmmmm....

 

[ArcanoMáximo]

"And what about that the Fifth Essence of Tarot is The Devil card?
78 cards
7+8=15
XV The Devil
although we can find The Lovers yet, i guess...
(1+5=6 The Lovers)
hmmmm....."
Now maybe i undrestand this too, in another thread Frank gave me the chance of to think about it better:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=547144#post547144

 

[Fulgour]

When aligned astrologically rather than numerologically
XV The Devil stands in 'opposition' to VII The Chariot.

The exaltation of the South Lunar Node in Sagittarius,
corresponds with XV The Devil (letter fifteen, Samekh).

And the exaltation of the North Lunar Node in Gemini,
corresponds with VII The Chariot (letter seven, Zayin).

Much may be learned from even a rudimentary study
of these ancient and powerful astological points...
After all, The Nodes are where ALL eclipses take place.

 

[ArcanoMáximo]

Yes, i agree with you, Peter. I don't doubt in that can find many relationships with many systems. But I think that after everything one can see that exist many other exepcions in which the Tarot doesn't adjust well . To say something very basic:
Why if all the numbers in the cards are Roman, in 4 , 9, 14 and 19 of the Marseille deck are not this way? That is to say, they are Roman but not "subtracts" as they make in general: IV, IX, XIV, XIX, but rather it is opposed to subtract because in their escence the only thing permissible it is seemingly the addition: I I I I, V I I I I, X I I I I, X V I I I I. The Suits of Swords, Cups, and Wands have numbers. Coins ("deniers") not. The page of coins has his title at the side, not under like the rest. The 5 of Cups has his number V in the reversed way of the others other two suits. If it is really as Rachel Pollack says that it would be divisible in 7, why the Court cards plows not numbered till 14 that migth be divisible by 7 too? Hmmm... And there many more examples which the RWS doesn't continue regrettably, although I continue enjoying more its images. But obviously it is only a personal point of view. Obviously i may be wrong, of course!

 

[Draegyn]

About that torch...

To me it looks like the torch has set fire to one of the 'little devils' tails.

Does it look like this to anyone else?

If so what can it mean?
That allowing yourself to give in to you baser nature/deepest desires can harm you?
If you play with fire you get burned?

Any thoughts?

In my understanding of symbology, fire is the active masculine energy represented as the element of Wands. A manifestation of this energy may be "spiritual", just as water may represent a manifestation of feminine "spiritual" energy such as in The Star.

The Torch is not held forth or upright according to its purpose, to illuminate, but held downwards, a subversion or inversion of its purpose. As The Devil illustrates willful subjugation to temporal desires, pleasures or addictions I see a potential for obsessive, unhealthy or perverse sexuality. Perhaps staying in a "bad" relationship because of sexual obsession or losing a sense of self or identity by idenfitying the "self" only through sexual expression.

Just another temporal "gift" such as alcohol which may have a harmful expression due to lack of maturity, addiction or abuse.

 

[Parzival]

darkest Devil

It looks as if the torch is weighed down by its earthliness, unable to be elevated. And it seems to be flaming the male's tail, which is just under it. The torch's flame, like a red apple, falls towards lower darkness. There is no upper light to guide in this picture. Look to the Star for that.

 

[ArcanoMáximo]

"why does the devil have no light but a dull torch? "
Because the Hermit stole it him?
AM*

 

[blackroseivy]

Of course, "Lucifiel" is actually "Light-Bringer"; what might this mean vis-a-vis the card here in question? I believe that it represents the "Darkness Before the Light", as represented by the violently destructive flashes of lightning in the Tower.

What say you-all?