6-Week Wonders

[Joermit]

Hi, there!

Very interesting thread so far but I do feel compelled to chime in and offer some thoughts that might stimulate some further discussion...

Like anything else in life, if you are going to be good at it, it takes time, practice and patience. Even a singer with a beautiful voice has to train that voice so their vocal chords are not hurt in performance. Even the most poised ballerina has to work up to pointe and must audition for a spot.

Oh, the number of professional singers who actually sing very incorrectly, at a technical level is astonishing...lol many, many have damaged their voice and have had to have surgery... many times when you hear of an artist having to cancel part of their tour due to 'illness' or 'fatigue' or even 'laryngitis' it's often because they've severely damaged their voice and physically can't sing... and converslely, it's also amazing how many wonderfully trained singers with perfect technique just don't sound all that great...

there is no accounting for taste either... many people think that Barbara Steisand has a beautiful voice... well, I don't really care for her (though she has wonderful technique!)

there are some that just have a gift... a natural instrument and technique... and if they do know technique and are trained... which training is better?? for singers, is being trained in speech level singing better than the bel canto style of training?? and like I said before, many great singers have little training....

and training to be a ballerina is grueling work... you should see a girl's feet when first going onto pointe... the bruises, calluses, blisters, and blood... it's awful... but you did mention an important part.... the audition... a ballerina can still go through those blisters and blood and such and still not get parts... no matter their training... and wonderfully trained singers can go to audition after audition and still not record an album...

auditioning in very, very subjective... like a reading... it's all subjective... I don't see how we can ever subject a reader to any sort of standardization.... nor would I want to....

I was a bit shocked

a) When I first rocked up to a new age shop that I ended up having a decade-long association with, and they let me start doing readings there without even asking me to do one for them, and

b)when I went in on my day off to find a reader I'd never seen before sitting in "my" corner. I went to introduce myself between clients: she had a mint-condition Rider-Waite deck on the table, and was reading, apparently for the first time, the LWB. And if anybody had asked for a reading, they would have been charged full price. <sigh>

I know exactly what you are saying and I am rather fed up with someone who recently did this. She never owned or looked at a tarot deck until two months ago. She finally decided to buy one and because she is friends with a local store owner, she was hired to do tarot readings. So, why does this make me angry?

1. She still knows nothing about tarot and makes up her own meanings, entirely. I am still a firm believer in following a traditional system to some extent and then tapping into your intuition for a reading. But this takes time and a lot of practice. It doesn't happen overnight.

2. This makes other tarot readers look bad, because customers are already complaining about her readings and that she "runs out of things to say" or blanks out during a reading. Hopefully this will urge the owner to take her off future schedules, at least until she has some background and knowledge on tarot. They did just have a fair and though she was available for readings, no one went to her.

3. She is taking up time that better readers were depending on having to take their cliental and now they can only read once or twice in a period of 2-3 months because too many people are vying for the 1 night the store is open.

This sucks, it certainly does... but... are the readers at fault? or the store owners? the owner of any metaphysical space should have a responsibility to their readers and the public to hire a 'professsional reader'... there should be an 'audition' of the reader or even several, but again, this is very subjective... but does a store owner have to?? do they always?? no... it's their business, their money, their networking contacts, their word of mouth... they run it as they see fit... this is where, for me, personally, I would not read with them as there is a cross purpose and difference of professional opinion...

This is PRECISELY why I'm studying within the Vocational Education and Training system: I fully intend to work as a trainer and assessor, develop the professional contacts - then lobby for some kind of training and assessment to be mandatory before people can read for money. This does NOT mean they have to memorise rote-meanings, and it does NOT mean that people like me who have been reading forever in a way that maybe isn't outlined in a recognised published book will suddenly find themselves barred: there will, as in the other occupations, be an RPL and RCC pathway to assessment (recognition of Prior Learning/Recognition of Current Competencies) All the stakeholders will have a say in organising the training package (what materials should be taught and assessed, what abilities need to be demonstrated to what level), and stakeholders will include professional bodies, "industry" and actual practitioners.

But how does one judge competency in readings? no good reader in my opinion, can or should ever claim to be 100% accurate... how can there be a training package the covers a reader's personal experience of living the 8 of cups and having an extremely personal meaning behind that card? why would we want a standardized teaching process for something so very personal to many? will it include golden dawn teachings and attributions? what if that doesn't resonate with a person?? and who says the stakeholders and professional bodies and "industry" and actual practitioners are qualified to assess?? they themselves? who assessed them? who trained them... it's the chicken and the egg...lol

and do we create training packets and stardards for those who read with/via:
playing cards
oracle cards
crystals
coffee grounds or tea leaves
those who scry
palmists
astrologers
clairvoyants, clairaudients, mediums
bones
dice
only the majors
marseille style
etc
etc


for me... a reader's only judge should be their client... and if the client got something out of the reading that's all that should matter... a good reader will succeed as a professional if they are just that... good... a store owner will succeed as a business ownder if they hire or contract good readers...


again... I just have to think of those whom are naturally gifted and able to read.... they have the instrument...

just some thoughts....

Joey

 

[Grizabella]

Amen, Joey!

 

[ResilientWench]

Mmmhmm... *chewing, chewing*

 

[nisaba]

This sucks, it certainly does... but... are the readers at fault? or the store owners?

I don't think it really matters - it's not about finding fault. It's about delivering the best possible service, the best possible readings, to clients. Someone who's just bought their first deck and is reading a really basic how-to, few-words-to-a-card book, is, IMO, not ready yet.

Of course, I could always be wrong - I stress, everything I've said so far is my opinion only.

But how does one judge competency in readings?

This is why, once there is agreement between a wide range of stakeholders (Tarot organisations, readers, teachers etc), it is *still* going to take years and years to agree to a set of procedures that nobody finds offensive.

no good reader in my opinion, can or should ever claim to be 100% accurate... how can there be a training package the covers a reader's personal experience of living the 8 of cups and having an extremely personal meaning behind that card?

I don't think we're looking for accuracy, or even a standardised RW-only or Thoth-only set of memorised meanings. We're looking for helpfulness to the purposes of the client. If it were up to me, I would be looking at a training programme including a great many supervised readings using more than one deck or system, in which the reader demonstrates proficiency in more than "open techniques" (saying things that could evoke an emotional reaction or recognition in the vast majority of humans), being relevant and specific to the client's situation. This takes time. This can also be judged: by the standard assessment techniques of observation and third-person feedback (in this case, the clients or simulated clients). To get back to your example, your understanding of the Eight Cups may be based on a meaning associated with the look of the RW illustration, that of journeying alone by night. Someone else's might be informed by Chinese numerology, eight being the number of prosperity and happiness, and Cups still being emotional. Two entirely different feels to the card - but it is the internalised meaning that the actual reader has that will come through in their spreads.

why would we want a standardized teaching process for something so very personal to many?

I never suggested that it should. I *did* suggest that members of the public should have some way of finding out if the reader has any experience, or whether this will be their first-ever reading.

will it include golden dawn teachings and attributions?

I would hope that would not be compulsory, but ultimately that would not be up to me or any other individual, but up to consensus between maybe, say, a hundred and fifty to three hundred informed individuals and bodies (stakeholders)?

for me... a reader's only judge should be their client... and if the client got something out of the reading that's all that should matter...

Exactly, and it is exactly those people who need help to be able to tell teh frauds from people who have actually put in at least a little time and attendion in developing their skills. Approved assessment techniques in the Vocational Education and Training system don't only include written exams - that thinking went out with the dinosaurs. How do you assess a trainee chef on paper? You don't - you gop into kitchens and watch them cook, watch tehm cope with pressure, watch them develop new recipes, taste everything they produce. It's called "observation", an authorised assessment method, and "third person feedback" when you ask the chef's customer or the reader's querent, also an authorised assessment method. It's right through the occupational training system, and should be. That is exactly whart I'm urging we should bring into play, to make sure clients *do* get at least competent readers every time, instead of wasting their money to find out who not to go to next time.

again... I just have to think of those whom are naturally gifted and able to read.... they have the instrument...

Exactly, and currently under the legislation, the assessment tools exist to judge that. My only problem is that currently Tarot readers are not deemed a "vocation" or an "occupation" and currently there is no process to certify and qualify them as having performed to a benchmark standard before they sit down with a client, who often are very vulnerable people.

 

[sapienza]

will it include golden dawn teachings and attributions?

I would hope that would not be compulsory, but ultimately that would not be up to me or any other individual, but up to consensus between maybe, say, a hundred and fifty to three hundred informed individuals and bodies (stakeholders)?

The sad thing is that if you took 150 to 300 people then you'd probably get a consensus that golden dawn meanings are 'correct'. Unfortunatley that's just the way it is.

I do understand where you are coming from nisaba, but not sure I share the same vision for the future of tarot as a profession. I agree that experience counts and would accept that some kind of reading log or experience register could be helpful, just so, as you say, people know they are not paying top dollar for someone doing their first reading....I guess that could work. But as for formal accreditation....I'm just not sure. To me it would spoil some of the 'magic' that is tarot. I remember my first reading, in a little shop in a dingy arcade, an older lady with a shawl around her shoulders.....all very stereotypical, and yet all part of the mystery. Not sure if it would have felt the same to have walked into a 'tarot clinic' and see certificates displayed on the wall and sit opposite someone in a business suit. OK, so probably an extreme example. Incidentally, my first reading was pretty awful, but it did spark a lifelong interest in tarot

As I said nisaba, I do get your point, there are some readers out there who act in very irresponsible ways, but how to 'fix' it is a really big question. I guess it's similar in a way to the natural health professions. Regulation often comes AFTER the 'authorities' realise just how many people are using the services. As demand for and use of tarot/astrology/palmistry readings increase, then there will inevitably be more pressure to regulate services.

 

[nisaba]

<grin> You spend a lot of time at the beginning of your post trying to disagree with me, but ...

I guess it's similar in a way to the natural health professions. Regulation often comes AFTER the 'authorities' realise just how many people are using the services.

Bingo! You are suddenly agreeing with me totally and completely.

And the first chefs? Can you imagine how horrified they were at the mere idea that their creative skill might be somehow authenticated? I suppose the ability to make sushi or not (which, incidentally I can, I make excellent sushi due to the wife of a friend of mine!) could be seen as the equivalent of the GD attributions: do all chefs learn how to make sushi? No. Do some? Yes. Do all chefs know how to make a variety of different styles of food, of which sushi may or may not be one? Definitely. Are they given their certification if they can only make poor-quality scrambled eggs? Nope.

There's a reason I used cheffing as a metaphor - the two fields have a *lot* in common - they are both instinctive, creative and utterly individual to each student.

 

[sapienza]

As I said, I do see where you are coming from, and why. It's just that it gives me a headache even thinking about what is involved in getting a workable 'system' in place. I must also add that I currently would not consider myself a professional so I am coming from a different place when I make comments. I'm absolutely passionate about tarot, but less so about doing it as my 'job', if that makes sense.

I could go on about this, but won't risk boring anyone to death. I do have a good friend up here in Brisbane who has some similar ideas so it will be interesting to watch how this all goes in the coming years (or decades )

 

[nisaba]

<smile> It will take time. For a start, I intend to get to know the accreditation system *very* well from the inside first, and that will probably take years. Might as well do things properly if you are going to do them at all. PM coming your way.

 

[Baroli]

Ah, but you still went through a process. You still spent two years of reading and trying to learn it in a traditional way. You learned gradually what a spread is, how to tap into your intuition, and obviously you have a gift to add a lot of psychology to your readings. You didn't jump in and start reading professionally, at a New Age store, 6 weeks after you picked up your first tarot deck! As for the payment, yes, at this store you pay before you get your reading and cannot get a refund, so the customers are NOT happy. Therefore, inexperience and lack of knowledge affects all involved; reader, customer, owner of store and the other readers who do have good reputations as excellent readers with experience and talent under their belts. Every reader has to start somewhere, when it comes to reading for someone else, but be careful at what cost to others!

Actually HC for me it was all about common sense as well. I didn't jump in and start reading in a New Age shop because back in those days (good Lord I sound like Noah and the ark LOL), where I lived in NJ, there weren't any New Age stores. Back then, the unique shops were called "Head Shops." The kind where as soon as you walked in, you caught the fresh aroma of sickening incense to mask the real smell of the pot being smoked in the back room. lol Ahhh,......... those were the days. But I digress. I sat in the student union of my college, wasn't looking for money at the time, but money came to me by way of tips. Sort of like Grizzies Karma jar. I also didn't equate the word archetype and Jung and all that other sort of mumbo-jumbo, quite frankly till I happened upon this site. Nah, I wouldn't call me a studied reader at all. Not like others who literally have devoted their lives to reading and studying.

I truly believe that learning by earning and learning from the school of experience is a great way to learn Tarot and eventually becoming a "professional." But along with that, you should have some common sense and treat what you are doing with the respect that it deserves as with any other profession you endeavor to do. I think we are on the same page here.


*People what is about to be said is my opinion, not to be misconstrued as "Word-Up."

What I don't like and what I will NEVER like is going to a class or reading a book and getting some sort of piece of paper or a shingle to hang out that says I am "certified" or I belong to The Grand Mucky-Mucks of Tarot Readers Association. Means absolutely nothing to me. IMO, it takes away from the individuality of Tarot readers. (Moddies, if this is off-topic, I will remove).

What I do like is sitting down in front of the 6-week wonders at a bar or a meet-up or whatever and listen to them spout their ideas and then ask questions about them. Get them to think, as someone did with me. I think we can both say that as the season veterans, it is our obligation when possible to help those who are brand new. I don't feel shoving the newbies into a course of certification process to become "professional" is the answer.

 

[HearthCricket]

I truly believe that learning by earning and learning from the school of experience is a great way to learn Tarot and eventually becoming a "professional." But along with that, you should have some common sense and treat what you are doing with the respect that it deserves as with any other profession you endeavor to do. I think we are on the same page here.


*People what is about to be said is my opinion, not to be misconstrued as "Word-Up."

What I don't like and what I will NEVER like is going to a class or reading a book and getting some sort of piece of paper or a shingle to hang out that says I am "certified" or I belong to The Grand Mucky-Mucks of Tarot Readers Association. Means absolutely nothing to me. IMO, it takes away from the individuality of Tarot readers. (Moddies, if this is off-topic, I will remove).

I agree. There is nothing better than experience to teach you the ropes. But even though we did have a very nice Metaphysical store, one town over, where I grew up, I would not have read there. I started off with friends, family, my parents friends, then college students for parties. I had read for a friend who was an RA, who passed the word, and the college came to me to hire for the dorm Halloween party in hopes to keep the students inside and out of trouble. It was excellent practice and so pleased I got paid. The next day they approached me, again, and had a list of students who didn't get the chance to have readings and hired me to read out of the student lounge that night. After that I was given permission to read professionally for students out of my dorm room for the next 2 years. I charged 3.00 per 15 minute reading, being a starved student myself.

And, like you, certifications do not impress me. While people do learn some things, I feel it ultimately spits forth a bunch of students who read the cards like drones and all in the same fashion, never growing, never tapping into their own intuition. But I digress, too. There is a thread on this subject elsewhere...