A Walk in the Wood...cuts, the Marseilles

[Debra]

Yeah, that's good.

Not how I see the female pope, though.

I mean, isn't it enough that the pope is a "she," to put her at the bottom of the heap number-wise?

 

[kwaw]

Yeah, that's good.

Not how I see the female pope, though.

I mean, isn't it enough that the pope is a "she," to put her at the bottom of the heap number-wise?

You mean you see it as a gender issue? As low as she is she cannot be anything false or bad because she is a woman? (One often sees it the other way too, the emperor and pope, though higher trumps, are seen as bad 'male' cards).

There is the tradition, for example we may see reflected in the pattern of the Boiardo tarot, that the women represent the virtues that trump the men/vices with which they are paired. If we see the papesse as paired with the bateleur instead of the pope, then perhaps we could see her as the true word that trumps the false.

On the other hand we have the example of the Franciscan preacher of the Steele sermon, who sees the Popesse as representing some thing 'false' (that which is denied by Christian faith, the object of wretches).

In terms of gender issues, as low as she is, she still trumps the male figure of the bateleur; note too while the lowest figure is male the highest (in the TdM II pattern at least) is female (the figure at the centre of the world card).

Personally I tend to see her in the light of all these references, the positive and the negative.

Numberwise (II) she could be said to represent dualist oppositions, flesh v. spirit, good v. evil, virgin v. whore. She is Venus Pandemonium, in whom Venus Urania and Venus Natura are in opposition and strife: she is the Holy City at the centres of war and pestilence. The empress on the other hand I see more as Venus Humanita, in which the opposition pairs are reconciled in a new synthesis.

 

[Debra]

Personally I tend to see her in the light of all these references, the positive and the negative.

For reading, me too.

I like seeing the World as a hermaphrodite, but this Walk in the Woods hasn't gotten there yet

 

[nicky]

I have always tended to see the Magician as being related in some ways to the High Priestess... so in the TdM, why not? It would certainly fit in with why the Pope and Papess are separated.

As far as the cross dressing poetry ... I always wondered by the Catholic Church had their men dressed up as women, as, if I recall correctly, they thought women had no souls..

 

[kwaw]

I looked up the Popes at the approximate time that tarot was developing:

# Martin V (1417-31)
# Eugene IV (1431-47)
# Nicholas V (1447-55)
# Callistus III (1455-58)
# Pius II (1458-64)

I wonder a bit about the general public's feeling about these popes at the time. There were also some 'antipopes' listed (huh?)

The sister of Pope Pius II, Caterina Piccolomini (she resorted to her maiden name following her brother's election to Pope), had built with papal funding a palace in Sienna: the Palazzo delle Papessa.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...olomini+papessa&lr=&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

The origin of this name for the palace is not known: the author of the above finds the earliest reference to this name to a document of 1548.

 

[nicky]

Justice

Justice sits facing us with eyes forward presenting a calm demeanor. She holds her sword upright in her right hand and scales held in her left. She appears to have wings...although they look to be the same material as her cloak, but I cannot for the life of me imagine how any cloak could lay that way...so wings they are. I assume that is as she is one of the virtues, which I read are represented as angels in the majors ...in various orders and guises. She is crowned, although I am not sure why. She needs a kinder dressmaker.

 

[kwaw]

False Holiness:

...and poets and writers too, in the bawdier and irreverent traditions of Boccaccio, Chaucer, de Meun, Valla, Rabelais...

Vincenzo Imperiali c. 1550:

Then comes the Pope, with the Emperor,
And each of them has his woman at his side,
For to be without women, is not in their heart.
Called is the one Holy, and the other Holy,
Yet they want clowns and jugglers,
And the completely mad, ludicrously attired.

With the Italian:

Poi viene il Papa,con l’Imperatore,
Then comes the Pope, with the Emperor,

Et ciascun d’essi hà la sua donn’ à canto,
And each of them has his woman at his side,

Che senza donne stare,* loro* non da il core.
For to be without women, is not in their heart. (lit, they do not give heart/core; they do not agree with in their heart; they do not give credence?)

Chiamato vien l’un Sacro,*e l’altro Santo,*
Called is the one Holy,* and the other Holy,*

pur vogliono buffoni,et giocolieri,*
yet they want clowns and jugglers,

Et pazzi in tutto,con risibil manto.
And the totally crazy with ludicrous attire.

* star and lor in original.
* sacro and santo lit. sacred and saint, but Sacro romano imperatore e il Santo Padre = Holy roman emperor and holy father
* giocolari in original.


excerpts of the poem with translation by Marco here:
http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Lollio_and_Imperiali,_Ferrara_1550_ca

 

[Bernice]

Many thanks for the link to Marcos' translation (written in 1550) Kwaw.
A very interesting read, and the following exerpt clearly places the origin of these cards with gaming - not esoteric mysteries .

"I think it was a good idea to give to the game
such a name, which is currently obscure,
because it has been corrupted by the length of time.
The antique name was “Teroco”,
from “teriocor”, that in the Latin language
simply means “I play three times”.
Because we see that the player is ready
to make three kind of games at the same time,..."


Bee

ETA: Kwaw, just read your response I do know that Marco is here in this 21st century. (chuckling.....).

 

[kwaw]

Many thanks for the link to Marcos' translation (written in 1550) Kwaw.

I don't think Marco is quite that old

He published his translation earlier this month.

(The original is indeed c.1550)

 

[conversus]

She needs a kinder dressmaker.

Tim Gunn could do a lot for TAROT.

CED