A Walk in the Wood...cuts, the Marseilles

[kwaw]

ETA: Kwaw, just read your response I do know that Marco is here in this 21st century. (chuckling.....).

Do not forget to read his translation of Piscina too:

http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Piscina_Discorso_1

It is over 6 pages; use the prev - next buttons at the top and bottom of the pages to move through them

Kwaw

ps: A big THANK YOU to Marco, for making these materials available to us in English.

 

[Bernice]

Do not forget to read his translation of Piscina too:

http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Piscina_Discorso_1

It is over 6 pages; use the prev - next buttons at the top and bottom of the pages to move through them

Kwaw

ps: A big THANK YOU to Marco, for making these materials available to us in English.

Agreed Kwaw - a very BIG thank you to Marco.

So in the space of 15 years (1550 - 1565) here is another interpretation of the trumps and their (numeric) arrangement, being both moralistic and religious and with reference to events & places of those times. And the teachings of Aristotle and Plato are also included. What a comprehensive assessement!

The possibility of the Fool and Bateleur also referencing two inns is delightful - I wonder if the Mirror Inn was considered to indicate Prudence (not conducive for getting merry in your cups), and why the Fool Inn was more favoured?

And here, civil conditions are related to the trump group Chariot, Strength & Fortune, (in that order).

.....the Triumphant Chariot, in the Eighth number, in the Ninth it is followed by Strength, with Fortune, placed in the Tenth position. Those three portraits are put here with the most beautiful order, making reference to the Popes, Emperors & Princes, as those to which it is appropriate to triumph of their great enterprises, and victorious wars; for what belongs to Strength, it happens that these Great Princes are stronger than all other men.....etc.........(all) are subject to the insolence of Fortune........

Fortune gives and takes everything
only on virtue it has no power

And this is why Fortune is put in a higher place and position than all the other things I have named: because she dominates and rules and turns in their own way all of them.

I like the reasoning given here for Death;

...But we can also say, not without some wise reason, that Death is placed here, after all the preceding figures, to mean that all of those of which we have discussed in detail are subject to Death, as Popes, Emperors, Triumphs, Strengths, Vices, and all the other above mentioned figures. And this is verified by the fact that after Death, placed in the thirteenth place, there follows nothing on which it has any power.

And the pip cards are included, beginning with this exerpt......

Batons represent ancient wars, which often were fought using them, not only in public wars but also in private conflicts.......etc...

With swords, he (the Author) represented modern wars and battles, which are mainly fought using them.

With Cups and Coins, the very moral [24] Inventor represented peaceful situations. Since in those times people live merrily, safe from the cruelty and troubles that war brings with itself, he placed the Cups to represent wine, which makes men merry & takes their heart away from any sad and melancholic thought. Since during peace almost everyone lives content, coins were added to represent contentment: because they make people content, since with them we can fulfil all our desires, according to the well known proverb of the French that say that with money it is possible to do anything, however great and difficult.

.... and continues with another possible intepretation of them.


Many thanks for this link to Marcos' translation Kwaw.

Bee

 

[kwaw]

Batons represent ancient wars, which often were fought using them, not only in public wars but also in private conflicts.......etc...

With swords, he (the Author) represented modern wars and battles, which are mainly fought using them.

With Cups and Coins, the very moral [24] Inventor represented peaceful situations. Since in those times people live merrily, safe from the cruelty and troubles that war brings with itself, he placed the Cups to represent wine, which makes men merry & takes their heart away from any sad and melancholic thought. Since during peace almost everyone lives content, coins were added to represent contentment: because they make people content, since with them we can fulfil all our desires, according to the well known proverb of the French that say that with money it is possible to do anything, however great and difficult.

In gaming the short or round suits (coins and cups, or the red suits hearts and diamonds in french suits) are distinguished from the long suits (swords and batons, or the black suits in french suits) by the sequence of the ranking, from higher to lower, and from lower to higher. Movement towards the one is analagous to Peace; away from one to War. The forces of War and Peace are alternatively known as forces of Love and of Strife:

Love and Strife

The four elements are, however, simple, eternal, and unalterable, and as change is the consequence of their mixture and separation, it was also necessary to suppose the existence of moving powers - to bring about mixture and separation. The four elements are eternally brought into union, and eternally parted from each other, by two divine powers, Love and Strife. Love (Greek: φιλία) explains the attraction of different forms of matter, and Strife (Greek: νεῖκος) accounts for their separation.[31] If the elements are the content of the universe, then Love and Strife explain their variation and harmony. Love and Strife are attractive and repulsive forces which the ordinary eye can see working amongst people, but which really pervade the universe. They alternately hold empire over things, - neither, however, being ever quite absent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empedocles#cite_note-29

Love and Strife cannot be understood literally; instead Empedocles spoke of them as diametrically opposed cosmic principles, where Love (harmony) is the uniting force that attracts all things, thereby creating something new, and Strife (discord) is the dividing force that separates and destroys things. This notion bears some similarity to the Yin and Yang principles of ancient China. In the I-Ging, Yin is attributed to the female and Yang is attributed to the male. Together these two principles govern the totality of existence while bringing about cyclical changes, depending on whether Yin or Yang assumes dominance. This is not unlike Empedocles who contends that the history of the universe is cyclic and eternal and the primary moving factors are Love and Strife.

According to Empedocles, all matter periodically contracts and expands. Under the power of Love everything unites until there is only "The One" - a divine and homogeneous sphere. Then the sphere dissolves under the rising power of Strife and the world is established in a series of stages until it reaches a state of complete dissolution. History then reverses itself, and the universe gradually returns to the state of the irreducible sphere. This cosmic cycle rolls on repeatedly without beginning and without end.

http://www.thebigview.com/greeks/empedocles.html

Empodocles poem 'on nature' is also raised on the thread discussing the Empress's bag:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=86725

 

[nicky]

L'ermite

I would have expected an hour glass but our Noblet Hermit holds up a lantern. (Could be a lunch sack too but I am assuming...) He has a rather long beard and a receding hairline, and carries a staff, but he does not look very elderly. He is not leaning on the staff and stands straight. He gazes off clear eyed in the direction he is holding his lantern. The picture on this card is odd, he has land in front of him but behind him is nothing...how did he get here.. looks like he popped right in ..

 

[redmoonvestal]

Papesse as Abbess

Popping in late to the discussion -- when I look at the papesse (labeled high priestess in my deck), I think of an abbess. A medieval abbess had about the most powerful position a woman could have -- controlling nunneries, sometimes joint nunneries/monasteries that rivaled major estates in size and scope. The role was almost equivalent to an Abbot.
How many medieval or renaissance people ever dealt with or heard much about the Pope? Probably not a lot -- a distant figure, involved in matters way above most people's paygrade.
But they'd hear more about and be more invested in the local abbot, abbess, lord of the estate, or chateleine of the estate....

 

[redmoonvestal]

Papesse as Abbess

Also, just to add...

Look at the Pape card -- he has a mitre, and the staff or crozier. In comparison, the Papesse does not. An abbess receives the ring and rule of the order (the book on her lap?) but does not receive the mitre or crozier. The crozier is the symbol of the shepherd of the flock -- and the abbot carries that as the ultimate symbol of his power, because an abbot's power also traditionally extended outside the boundaries of the monastery, over orders of monks.

Food for thought.

 

[nicky]

thanks redmoonvestal... and welcome to the thread

 

[nicky]

wheel

nobody at the bottom in the Noblet...very different than what I was expecting...

The ascending animal looks to become a man at the top and then turns back towards an animal with a tail heading down...

Unlike some decks, this deck does not have anyone turning the wheel....

So many TdM decks... each one has different idiosyncrasies...

 

[nicky]

Oh, and the man on top has yet again those odd sort of wings... I'm guessing at one point Fortuna was there and this is left from her image.

 

[nicky]

Force

A women in flowing robes and cloak like covering holds open the mouth of a lion...which has some pretty pointy teeth. This lion has an odd looking mane but I am pretty confident it is a lion. The woman wears one of the strangest hats I have ever seen..it looks like she has mud flaps. I am laughing out loud here looking at her. What a hoot!