Colloquial vs. Pure Tarot

[Lillie]

Was listening to NPR a few days ago and heard a British gentleman talking about using colloquialisms.

He was talking about how certain catchy phrases become popularized, and then how they become part of language. He was sort of defending himself against having been called a snob by a listener. What caught me was that he said that these catchy phrases while interesting and colorful shouldn't be allowed into the speech of educated folk. That we should police ourselves in a way, and not allow in these popular expressions.

Oh, them people make me laugh.
You get loads of them on BBC Radio 4.
Sometimes I agree with them, but most of the time I think they should get a life and stop writting grammatically perfect letters to radio stations.

As for the tarot, and is it being watered down by all these 'fluffy but shallow' modern decks.
In my opinion, yes. These fluffy but shallow modern decks are just that.
Fluffy, and shallow.
They are nice to look at but have very little to do with the tarot.

but it don't matter, people like them and that's fair enough.

And the 'real', or original, or the 'not fluffy and not shallow' decks still exist and still sell well, and people who are drawn to the depths will find them.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[gregory]

As always - Lillie has distilled the issue to its essentials. It's like serious study of anything - the more you actually learn, the more you bother to learn - and if you don't bother then it doesn't matter that much that you are looking at dross.

That said - language and life evolve - and tarot needs to, too. Not to say that TdM, Crowley etc are not the base layer of all things worthy - just as the King James Bible was the basis of the English church, in a way (and the language in it is still more beautiful than any translation - I don't care that much if the meanings are distorted; in rituals, SOUND counts too !)

But there is room for us all. Except elitists, That's dirty pool. If you have VALID arguments, that's one thing. If you are (as he was) against change just because it isn't the way YOU always did it, that is quite another.

 

[Grizabella]

I have to come back and add something here.

I think that decks with themes like The Big Rock from Atlantis aren't created with enough research into tarot symbolism to have much "meat" there for anyone to really draw on symbolism and archetype. You can make a picture that vaguely refers to a tarot card, such as the Empress, and make it picture a pregnant Big Rock from Atlantis, but that's not enough to make the deck imagery carry enough symbolism for it to appeal to the subconscious in any lasting or deep way so that it's readable for a majority of people over a significant period of time. Especially if the reader hasn't ever studied tarot symbolism and doesn't know what the Empress would symbolize in a regular tarot deck in the first place.

Like someone else said, the Big Rock from Atlantis deck won't have any staying power and will eventually only be worth a great deal with someone attaches the infamous OOP to its title, at which point the price will skyrocket and all of a sudden people will think it's a great prize.

So I guess in a way I can agree with that speaker on the NPR station.

But there are some newer decks that have a lot more thought given to them that will stand the test of time and will be consistently readable for a lot of people that aren't the standard decks, and I think that's great. Time marches on and things change.

 

[le pendu]

Like Umbrae, I'm going to use a food analogy... Pizza!

I tend to think of the TdM as a Margherita pizza.. pretty plain to some, but the perfect combination of essential ingredients without other toppings to ruin their taste. It might not be as "true" a pizza as plain cheese (if that really was the true, we don't know!), but it has a history, and I love it for its simplicity, and deliciousness!

The Waite.. um, maybe a Pepperoni Pizza? We've added some meat now and changed the flavor. Still a classic, and probably the most popular.

Crowley comes in with a classic "Deluxe" pizza... pepperoni, sausage, olives and mushrooms. Lots going on here, yet it all works together.

And then we have the thousands of other combinations. Some people like the canadian bacon and pineapple, others anchovies.

They're constantly coming out with new varieties like Thai Chicken, and bbq pizza. Sometimes they change the crust, sometimes they change the sauce, sometimes they change the toppings... but ultimately, it's still wonderful, delightful, manna from the gods, PIZZA!

I personally prefer the simplicity of my Margherita, without a lot of overlays to confuse the flavor, but I also mix it up a bit now and then just for variety, and ultimately, I just can't say no to pizza!

 

[thinbuddha]

Part fo the reason that TdM and other ancient decks have so much significance ascribed to them is that people have had a few hundred years to ascribe so much significance. Right now, nobody is giving such a level of respect to a deck like the "Lord of the Rings Tarot", but IF it were to somehow last the test of time and be continuously redrawn by other artists over the course of a few hundred years, I can guarantee that it would be treated with the same solemnnity as the TdM is today... not that I expect this to happen with the LOTR deck....

All of this is not to take anything away from TdM- it has withstood the test of time in a way that even the Visconti tarots have not- they have been in constant circulation in reprintings. The fact that something survives as a part of our culture in essentially the same form over such a long period of time is a testament to it's initial brilliance.

What was I saying....?

 

[Satori]

Thanks for the varied replies.

I think that for the most part I too have a laissez-faire perspective about Tarot. Do what works for you. Don't do it because the "guy on the radio" said so, but do it because you find meaning in the practice.

At the same time, I respect more now than ever before understanding why the tradition is so very rich and why it has the staying power that it has. Pondering the answers to those questions bring you to the birthplace of Tarot and the older decks, even if the more modern decks are what light your fire.

Isn't it true that we lament whenever a tradition or folkstory or culture falls into obscurity and rejoice whenever some bit of the same is reclaimed or rediscovered? It appears that we love the work of the purist while at the same time we berate him or her for the hardline attitude.

Simultaneously I find that for myself I'm amazed when I suddenly understand a card through the lens of some other totally unrelated bit of information or literature. Interesting that baba and Alex do this for us so well with the decks coming out of Magic Realist. The Fairytale Tarot while not the first deck to use fairytales very ingeniously offers us some tantalizing glimpses into the layers of details you can use when reading.

So for me, the more well read I am, the more I have bits of info from varied sources floating around my head the better I am at reading the deck. I actually think that understanding the human condition via literature makes you a better card reader, and I think you can include LaVyrle Shirley (in moderate doses ) in there right alongside Marge Piercy, Syliva Plath and Tennyson or Byron.

I want to grow as a reader and now that I'm out there in the public reading I want to know more about the cards and the things on the cards and even the things some modern deck creators choose to leave off of the cards. In fact, I'm getting very interested in what gets left off the cards, what symbols are sort of fading into obscurity, because somehow those symbols are the ones we may need some day, and they might also teach us what we are losing culturally that we might not want to lose. This may be a topic for another thread entirely, but it really is interesting to think about.

 

[Satori]

Like Umbrae, I'm going to use a food analogy... Pizza!

I tend to think of the TdM as a Margherita pizza.. pretty plain to some, but the perfect combination of essential ingredients without other toppings to ruin their taste. It might not be as "true" a pizza as plain cheese (if that really was the true, we don't know!), but it has a history, and I love it for its simplicity, and deliciousness!

The Waite.. um, maybe a Pepperoni Pizza? We've added some meat now and changed the flavor. Still a classic, and probably the most popular.

Crowley comes in with a classic "Deluxe" pizza... pepperoni, sausage, olives and mushrooms. Lots going on here, yet it all works together.

And then we have the thousands of other combinations. Some people like the canadian bacon and pineapple, others anchovies.

They're constantly coming out with new varieties like Thai Chicken, and bbq pizza. Sometimes they change the crust, sometimes they change the sauce, sometimes they change the toppings... but ultimately, it's still wonderful, delightful, manna from the gods, PIZZA!

I personally prefer the simplicity of my Margherita, without a lot of overlays to confuse the flavor, but I also mix it up a bit now and then just for variety, and ultimately, I just can't say no to pizza!

Love this le pendu. Really do.
Thinking Tarot pizza now. Gastronomic dude.

 

[Grizabella]

What's a Margherita pizza?

 

[le pendu]

basically it's tomato, fresh basil and sliced mozzarella.

I've seen versions with literally just tomato slices, basil, olive oil, and mozzarella... without sauce at all.


http://www.foodmuseum.com/pizzahistory/pizza/pages/pizzaqueenmargherita.htm

http://images.google.com/images?cli...argherita pizza&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

 

[Grizabella]

Oh yum! And I don't even like pizza.