Fear

[Zephyros]

I'm not sure where you're going with this. Perhaps you could clarify why you think Crowley should have been a different person after the crossing?

I think what he's getting is that after a person, for all intents, sees the face of god, one would expect a difference. Interestingly, to me at least, the answer to that is actually in the Bible, where it says

And Moses said unto the Lord, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.

Exodus 4:10, King James

Even when facing the burning bush, Moses still had a speech impediment, and God did not heal him of it (although it would have been nice if he had at least offered, just sayin'). Indeed, Moses continues to argue with God, showing that his fears were not cured or quelled by the experience. God does tell Moses he will be his speech and his tongue, since He is the one who created it, but even this assurance does little to put Moses's mind at ease.

And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send.

And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.

Exodus 4:13-14, King James

These passages show that even direct spiritual experience does not cure the physical body of either its physical ailments, nor its mental ones. Indeed, these passages recall to me the Book of Law, where Hadit says

10. O prophet! thou hast ill will to learn this writing.

11. I see thee hate the hand & the pen; but I am stronger.

12. Because of me in Thee which thou knewest not.

 

[Ross G Caldwell]

Isn't it Crowley who invented the idea that "Crossing the Abyss" entailed some sort of spiritual crisis? Perhaps it was current in the Golden Dawn, I don't know the history of this idea.

The notion stems from the grade system, where there is no path between 7=4 (Chesed) and 8=3 (Binah). To get from one to the other, one has to "leap", or cross what the GD called the Abyss (obviously a biblical metaphor, probably based in Lurianic Kabbalah as filtered by Kircher's diagram).

Of course there are five paths across the Abyss - three from Tiphereth (one to each supernal), and those from Geburah to Binah (Cheth) and Chesed to Chokhmah (Vau).

Really we are always complete trees - there is nobody missing a Sephira. The connection is always there, by GD Kabbalah it is through those five paths that the influence of the supernals is mediated. It is only in the grade system, when one wishes, or is compelled, to go from 7=4 to 8=3, that the concept of the "Crisis of the Abyss", consciously trying to integrate the understanding of the supernals with the lower 7, the "visible" person, arises. As far as I know, Crowley was the first one to write about such an experience in exactly those terms.

So there seems no point in arguing with him about an experience he himself codified. Especially an argument based on preconceived notions that such an experience equates to Enlightenment in other religions, and that it should result in some specific changes in character or in the body, and all the other stuff people associate naively with spiritual masters.

 

[Aeon418]

I think what he's getting is that after a person, for all intents, sees the face of god, one would expect a difference.

What's the big difference between you, me, and a Master of the Temple? We (you and I) both identify ourselves with our ego. The Master of the Temple does not.

I think what confuses a lot of people is when Crowley talks about the annihilation of the ego during the crossing of the Abyss. On the surface that seems to suggest that the Master no longer has an ego. It has somehow been destroyed forever. But then when you look back at Crowley after his attainment of 8=3 he still seems to be the same egotistical extrovert that he was before, and not the egoless saint that many people naively expect a spiritual master to be. So what's going on?

While there is an annihilation of the ego, it is not a permanent annihilation. The Master still needs an ego to work through, just as he still needs a physical body. But, just like in your Moses example, neither the body nor the ego are cured of their faults and foibles.

Crowley touches on this point in letter 32 in Magick Without Tears.

First, however, let me explain the point of view of the Master of the Temple, as it is so similar. You should remember from your reading what happens in this Grade. The new Master is "cast out" into the sphere appropriate to the nature of his own particular Great Work. And it is proper for him to act in true accordance with the nature of the man as he was when he passed through that Sphere (or Grade) on his upward journey. Thus, if he be cast out into 3° = 8°, it is no part of his work to aim at the virtues of a 4° = 7°; all that has been done long before. It is no business of his to be bothering his head about anything at all but his Work; so he must react to events as they occur in the way natural to him without trying to "improve himself." (This, of course, applies not only to worry, but to all his funny little ways.)

 

[Richard]

Then again it might be nothing more 'suspicious' than a time zone difference. Your original post was written at 3:04am my time.

It's called fishing for a response.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. Perhaps you could clarify why you think Crowley should have been a different person after the crossing?

Why not? However, the issue now seems to have been resolved.

 

[Aeon418]

Isn't it Crowley who invented the idea that "Crossing the Abyss" entailed some sort of spiritual crisis? Perhaps it was current in the Golden Dawn, I don't know the history of this idea.

I guess in one way the seed of the idea was contained in the Golden Dawn tradition that no one in a physical body could attain to the Supernals. This doctrine seems to be echoed in Liber 418 where NEMO - no man - is introduced. A death-crisis of some sort seems to be implicit. Although it is only from the perspective of the ego that any crisis exists.

The notion stems from the grade system, where there is no path between 7=4 (Chesed) and 8=3 (Binah). To get from one to the other, one has to "leap", or cross what the GD called the Abyss (obviously a biblical metaphor, probably based in Lurianic Kabbalah as filtered by Kircher's diagram).

There's also a subtlty in the sequence that sometimes gets missed. The transition from Chesed to Binah is the only time that two sephira of the same element are encountered. The fact that they are both Water means that it is loaded with symbolism, both biblical and mystical.

Of course there are five paths across the Abyss - three from Tiphereth (one to each supernal), and those from Geburah to Binah (Cheth) and Chesed to Chokhmah (Vau).

V.V.V.V.V.

As far as I know, Crowley was the first one to write about such an experience in exactly those terms.

That may be due to the fact that Crowley was the first person to skry all of the Enochian aethyrs that led to his attainment of 8=3. Crisis was part of that experience. The codification and development of the doctrine seems to have been developed after 1909.

Although we probably want to avoid any Donald Tyson sillyness at this point. He seems to think that Crowley triggered the Apocalypse with his Enochian work.

 

[ravenest]

One would hope that certain basic principles and developments outlined throughout the system (at the beginning of Liber E , O and many others) relating to an IMPROVEMENT in the development and expansion and control of fields of consciousness and awareness, 'vertical development' requiring a firm strong and balanced base, documents outlining attitudinal and behavioural developments (liber Librae) and other concepts indicating development (which is a change from the original state by drawing on potentials as yet unmanifest - not changing the original state to something it was not) would obviously indicate that change and development is an aim of the system ... there are reasons why 'spiritual attainment' systems often fail (because of the LACK of objective psychological adjustments needed on a psychological level) regardless of being A.A. G.D. (or a stream of other systems with failed or busted 'gurus')

Previously there was a quote; " There is no communication between its members. Theoretically, a member knows only the superior who introduced him, and any person whom he himself has introduced. "

It is interesting to see WHY Crowley introduced this secrecy and masked identity and lack of communication between the members.

[Again; 'What You Should Know About the Golden Dawn.' by Israel Regardie

 

[Always Wondering]

Fascinating stuff. Do go on.

I'm not sure if this is will help, but David Shoemaker did a 'Living Thelema' segment on Cognitive Therapy for magicians last year. There's a link to a book on the same page and a 'mood tracker' chart to download too.

http://www.speechinthesilence.com/web/2012/04

I actually have the book, so I spent the weekend with it. It was helpful, also the computer friendly mood tracker helps in the process. Turns out I do a lot of "mind reading" and "fortune telling" in a cognitive way. I've been able to disengage from three different stressful interactions already.


AW

 

[Always Wondering]

I have actually had a pretty good month. I did get out of town, mostly on the train, the Coast Starlight is such a beautiful ride. The highlight of my travels was Powell's Books in Portland Oregon. They had an occult section. Still, only one of Crowley's books though, the enochian one. So I finally picked up DuQuette's Understanding Crowley's Thoth Tarot. I also found some helpful used Tai Chi books. It was fun to see and handle some of the books that have been talked about here.
I even drove two hundred miles without freaking out.
I think it helped to be able to talk about it here.

Thanks everyone.

AW

 

[ravenest]

I even drove two hundred miles without freaking out.