Important Tips to Newbies

[firefrost]

Hils: Thankyou for the link! Re: Seasons for the four suits.

I used the 5 chinese 'elements' for the pip cards -various arrangements that have now boiled down to two - which I'm experimenting with now. They have a better interaction than the RWS basic four. Each element has two (basic) functions, Birthing/creating and checking/over-riding. A fascinating interplay when assigned to the pip cards!

Bee

Sounds complicated!

When you've sussed it out properly, let me know because it also sounds very interesting! Anything that can help with pip cards gets my thumbs up!


Hils

 

[berrieh]

The elemental associations in the tarot appear to have been first introduced by Levi, Wirth, the G.D., Waite, etc. They were for magical workings - NOT divination.

So, you'll all free to assign anything & everything to whatever card you like. Elemental associations arn't set in stone - or even necessary!

A good point. The Marseilles Tarot systems (at least when I learned it) and earlier Tarots didn't use elements. That was a new invention, a RWS thing, so far as I can tell. In learning Marseilles (not what I most often read, but something I did study at one point on my Tarot path), we mostly read the suits as implements - A sword was a sword, a baton was a baton, etc.

I'm not saying everyone has to study earlier Tarot in depth, but if you're going to work with elementals (and I personally do, actually), it's worth knowing that they probably haven't been around since the beginning of Tarot and certainly not in the RWS and/or Thoth form seen presently.

I'm still waiting for a well written tip that is half as good as the first one.

Browse the forum. There are hundreds of brilliant tips. Of course, how can we determine the 'worth' of a tip. I've learned much at AT. Most of the people who've expressed reservation with the original post's idea have given their own tips and experiences here and there, and I've learned from many of them.

I don't think you'll get many good tips by challenging in this manner, though. But, by sincerely asking for help, or expressing interesting things they've discovered about Tarot, people exchange wonderful tips here daily, I think.

One comment about "serious problem... (decks with a different alignment of elements.)" It doesn't matter which element matches with what suit. It is whatever works for you. If you think cup represent emotion/water fine. If you think they are spirit/fire, that is also fine. There is no "ONLY WAY". So this this a non-problem. Honestly it is not that difficult.

An earlier poster claimed that this was so complicated that it would discourage noobs and maybe cause them to give up tarot. DUH? There are only 4 Suites/elements. How difficult can that be? Most people notice there are 4 suites the first time they look at the cards.

Well, Ranzel also suggested using the Major Arcana with elements, which is the trickier part. Or how about the Court Cards, which most seem to see as elemental blends and other see as pure elements?

There are only 16 Court Cards and only 4 types... How can they cause so much trouble?

The number of a thing doesn't really engage its 'tricky' level in my opinion.

Elements are tricky because, if a Sword is Fire, that has a different meaning than if a Wand is Fire. Wands are sometimes aggressive, but they are playful, seeking, ambitious, they want to build things sometimes, they want to explore at others... Swords want to win and conquer, they present a different kind of pain and issue than wands, they're more precise, less playful and more deadly in their aggression, and have an ultimately different impact.

So, if you see Swords as Spirit/Fire... then you are presenting an ultimately different view than if you see Wands as Spirit/Fire.

Speaking of Fire, if you see it as Ambition/Passion, that is different than those who see it as always for Career, and that is different than those who see it as being Essential/Spirit. Those readers would all get very different things. Fire is much debated alone, let alone which Suit it applies to, how to apply the Courts, how to apply the Majors, which cards and elements are compatible, which cards and elements are incompatible...

There is some degree of a knowledge base needed to begin to work with the elements. I'd never discourage a newbie from doing so, but I'm not sure we can really place it anywhere near the newbie level. I would consider it rather advanced (perhaps intermediate as introduction) if I were leveling them out. And I think the original post presented an oversimplified view of how elementals can be used.

I have seen those new to Tarot struggle with the elements, especially when it comes to Wands and Fire (not even discussing Majors or Courts here), which seem to be the trickiest. There are many things to consider, and I think to really get into the elements of a card you have to get into three things this theory/tip doesn't quite mention:
1.) Why the element applies to the suit and the card.

2.) How the elements interact and WHY they do so (Fire weakens Water, sure, but *why* and *why* does Wind weaken earth and vice versa).

3.) What the element really and truly means. So, it's air... okay, what does that actually *mean* to you. What does air really say to you in a reading?

There's much debate on this, so I won't claim it can be viewed only one way... but they're important questions, in my view. It would be interesting to discuss, to be sure. And there may be more questions neccesary to consider! Perhaps we can find them, and that can edge us towards the discussion Litigator would like to have.

 

[Apollonia]

To all Readers:

I noticed when I read your readings is that you are missing some very important points.

Well, I don't argue with the tip. I do still read newbie threads because, as many others have said, sometimes I find good stuff there, and I'm still learning after 18 years. And elemental dignities can be very useful, I'm sure, although I discarded them for my own readings quite a while ago. So, it's a decent tip. I will say, though, that when I was first starting out, adding this bit in would have been daunting and (dare I say it?) kind of dull. More memorization, sorry, I know it's only four elements, but on top of the card meanings, it would have been just too much for my poor brain to take in all at once.

But I will proclaim to all who read this that I am human, and although it pains me to admit it, in this case, it wasn't what was said, it was how Ranzel said it. And no matter what anyone says about his not stating it was the only way, the thread title, the title of the post, even the arrow pointing to the post, plus the wording of the post itself, give the impression of arrogance, and it makes me crabby to read this type of writing. The very first sentence implies that everyone here who has given readings is missing something. I feel that even if that were true, it's fairly bad manners to burst onto the scene pointing out errors and omissions of longtime members right at the start. I don't think anyone would do this at a face to face meeting (at least, I hope not).

I'm sure all of us who give meaningful readings would have many tips for newbies, so I do not feel that's really the point. Like others, I do not want those who are just starting out on this exciting journey to become discouraged because this "important" tip doesn't seem to work for them. And that is, to me, the reason why the responses have been vigorous and plentiful--most of us remember when we were trying to find that one thing that would make our readings pop, and the sense of desperation when a "sure-fire" tip just didn't work or make sense. So let's leave room for those for whom this method just doesn't feel organic or right.

(And I will just add that I only pay attention to the word "important" when it is said by others about someone's information, not by the author him- or herself.)

 

[balenciaga]

I am sure it was just enthusiam Ranzel was trying to share. Like 'hey look at this, please don't forget to at least try it - it could be a factor you have not considered'.

 

[firecatpickles]

As there are different tarot systems, there are different elemental approaches.

For example, what of the Minchiate, where there are Majors named after the actual elements? Perhaps one can then argue that there is a numerological association with the elements?

Who's to say that one system is more valid than any other, particularly one developed by his or herself through personal study?

By claiming 'one system' as you have, perhaps this discourages rather than promotes future research?

 

[Ange]

I've tried being the voice of reason, but quite frankly I can't believe some of the posts that are coming out about this......some, like mine are gentle for's or against's, with some very good pointers thrown in.

But others, quite honestly, are like postings from spoilt kids, and I'm sure will do nothing to encourage anyone else to try to help anyone by posting something they feel might be useful.

When I say spoilt kids, it's the nit picking over the wording etc that is amazing me.

I for one like to read the tips, make my own mune up about which way to go, and then thank the poster for trying to help......

Ang x

 

[Umbrae]

It’s always nice to look over to the left and see where posters are from.

The initial thesis post, was presented by a poster who does not use English as a second language.

Perhaps they were trying to be helpful, but inadvertently used language that sounded like a mandate.

Or perhaps they do feel that they know the only true way to read tarot. Perhaps we will never know.

Other fairly new posters joined in. Some on both sides of the fray, some with accusations pertaining to respondents.

Perhaps they too spoke English as a second language and did not understand how caustic their posts were taken.

This is not a Newbie forum, nor is it a Newbie thread, some of us have been reading for many many years.

Reading styles vary.

Reading styles vary depending on culture, language, geographical location, and psychological makeup of the reader.

In some parts of the world – they still read with ONLY 22 cards, so no elementals are used.

Others use elementals but refuse to dress them up in little tuxedos and call them dignitaries.

“Take your pick - the worst approach is the fundamentalist one which dogmatically demands that we all accept that only one set of ascriptions is 'right' and all others must be 'wrong'.” On Elemental associations – Nigel Jackson

Still others read with sugar packets and numbers.

It’s nice to get along. It’s even nicer to understand that different voices bring different dishes to the table, some spicy, some subtle.

"Anyone who tries reading tarot discovers very quickly that there can be no hard and fast rules. The assignment of meaning to the cards is done at a subconscious level and a conscious level at the same time. Connections are being made at different levels of awareness. Some of these levels of awareness are not rational and do not necessarily conform to the restrictions that we usually place on our thinking." Lee Bursten

 

[Demon Goddess]

Dear Readers of this Thread,

Thanks so much for voicing out your opinions. As tarot readers we are all entitled to our own style of / and interpretation of cards. But, perhaps we should not forget the "basics" for they are the ones that is more important.

When I started learning tarot, I purchased lots of books to study and compare. One thing that has been said in common is to always check the elements present in the spread. One would find the reading more easier if one would stop for a few seconds to check what's going on around the situation rather that jumping to the individual meaning of the cards right away.

I have several experiences, in reading without checking the elemental dignities, that I struggled with my interpretations, but noticed that when I applied this principles of checking out the dignities first, I was not only reading fast but also intuitively.

This principle that I am teaching to the newbies is a very important tool in which would help them feel and understand the overall atmosphere of the situation in the spread.

I think applying these basic principles will make it more easier and fast for the newbies to learn tarot reading and as they advance over the years they could develop their own style just like the rest of our experts here.

Cheers, - Ranzel

Maybe so, but I've been reading for 30 years and read quite accurately, thank you very much AND, I've never EVER even looked at elementals... So...

like I said... Elementals, shmelementals... just read the cards.

 

[gregory]

Glorp. This may be a word in another language, but what it was coined here for was as a substitute for the phrase "intuitive reading" as everyone seemed to agree that whatever method is used, intuition comes into it. Which is true.
So all it means in this context is reading by just looking at when is in the card (no generic meanings, no astrological links, nothing but the card.)

Yes - the link was to the ISG threads where Simone did a great job of describing what I try to do. I'm sure if she'd show up here she would do it again..... It got me into reading - when nothing else did.

 

[Demon Goddess]

Ravenne

I have noticed that people who are truly knowledgeable about a subject are considerate and patent with people who know less. They will not "flame" anyone for making a suggestion, even if they have heard it before. On the other hand, those who are not knowledgeable, often feel insecure and defensive.

What I see here is that the person who started this thread contributed a cogent and well presented tip, that many new or not so new tarot readers might find interesting or beneficial.

So that is the score: One useful tip from one side.
From the other side?

The other side has contributed nothing but flame. These guys claim that they are so good that they don't want to hear about elementals. They are just abusing the forum with spam and nonsense. I wish they would just "get a room" if you know what I mean. (And I think you do.)

>>"I seem to get OK results. (anyone who has had a reading from me that was c**p, feel free to say so now !)<<

This is of course, the classic insecure and defensive statement. My challenge to this person is this:

Since you are a superior tarot reader, please come up with a genuine tip. Contribute something to this forum that is half as useful as cogent and well written and relevant as the tip that started this thread.

Just repeating over and over "it isn't THE ONLY WAY" "it isn't THE ONLY WAY" "it isn't THE ONLY WAY" won't cut it. Nobody is saying anything is "THE ONLY WAY" except you.

Comeon buddy. Don't let us down. You claim to be good. Show us that you can write a good tarot reading tip.

Oh... haha. That's funny.

I didn't join AT to learn how to write a good tarot reading tip.

The best one I got for anyone though... Just read the cards. How's that for defensive???

The second someone starts saying THIS is the only way... they're going to very quickly discover that they're wrong.

As for the posters here... You my friend have no idea who you are talking to and with.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the author of your favourite book writes here, and you just insulted them.