Questions about the "Bardic origin of Tarot" theory

[DianeOD]

Pennick, Ogham and the Beehive

Nigel Pennick, "Games of the Gods" has a section on Ogham (pp.95-100 inclusive in my edition).

Here's a section. It has been scanned, then translated into a word document, so I hope the alignment comes out ok.

QUOTE BEGINS......
FIGURE AND SEQUENCE 99 twigs brown, emblematical of earth. A red, green and brown garment thus symbolized the power of fire to free the earth from water. The tree is related to the raven, the sacred bird of the hero-king Bran, and is aid to be proof against water. Alder piles were used as foundations for sacred buildings which, for reasons of earth harmony, had to be built in water meadows, such as Winchester Cathedral. Alder as the Ogham stave Fearn signified the time period from March 19th until April 14th, and the corresponding compass direction. The time of the year is symbolic, because the spiral arrangement of the buds represents the power of growth, which is very apparent at that time of year. This sort of series of correspondences exists for every stave in the entire Ogham alphabet. A few are detailed below:

(Diane notes: the following five lists - Letter, Tree, Bird, Colour, Dates - should be side by side in a single table of correspondences)

Letter B
L
N
F
S
H
D
T
C
M
G
Ng
R


Tree
Birch
Rowan
Ash
Alder
Willow
Hawthorn
Oak
Holly
Hazel
Vine
Ivy
Reed
Elder


Bird Colour
Besan (Pheasant) Ban (White)
Lachu (Duck) Lialh (Grey)
Naescu (Snipe) Nechl (TransparentJ
Faelinn (Gull) Flann (Crimson)
Seg (Hawk) Sodalh (Fire-colour)
Hadaig (Night Crow) Hualh (Thorn-colour)
Omen (Wren) Dub (Black)
Truith (Starling) Temen (Dark Grey)
Corr (Crane) Cran (Brawn)
Mintan (Titmouse) Mbrachl (Multicolour)
Geis (Mute Swan) Gorm (Blue)
Ngeigh (Goose) Nglas (Green)
Rochat (Rook) Ruadh (Blood-red)


Dates
Dec 24 - Jan 20; Jan 21 - Feb 17; Feb 18 - Mar 18; Mar 19 - Apr 14; Apr 15 - May 12; May 13 - Jun 9; Jun 10 - Jul 7; July 8 - Aug 4; Aug 5 - Sep 1; Sep 2 - Sep 29; Sep 30 - Oct 27; Oct 28 - Nov 25; Nov 26 - Dec 23.

---- (D. notes: end of the first table.. quote continues...)

In addition to these periods of the year, the four cardinal directions are represented through the equinoxes and solstices. Here, there is a beginning winter solstice and an end winter solstice, expressing the ancient Celtic cycle of completion of the Year-and-a-day still observed in modern Wicca. The vowels are used for the time-directions:

(D notes: the following, again, should form a single table of parallels: vowel, tree, bird, colour, seasonal quarter-point)

A Fir
() Furze
I1 Heather
I: White Poplar I Yew


Airdhircleog (Lapwing)
Odorscrach (Cormorant)
Uiseog (Skylark)
Ela (Whistling Swan) lllait (Eaglet)


Ahad (Piebald)
Odhar (Dun)
Usgdha (Resin-colour)
Erc (Red)
lrfind (White)


Winter Solstice (1) Vernal Equinox Summer Solstice Autumnal Equinox Winter Solstice (2)

----(D. notes: end of second table. Quote continues...)

Ogham characters have a numerical correspondence as well, 1'I'lated to the symbolic functions of number which existed before the appropriation of number by mathematicians.
A= 1; O = 4; U = 5; E = 2; I = 3.



END OF QUOTE

Also the motif of the bard as "mellifluous" (Gk.Honey-tongued):- saint Bernard, whose epithet was this, has the beehive as one of his identifying emblems... connections are looking interesting...

and taking us back to the Behenian thread...

 

[jmd]

That one can make connections has been amply proved by those of the Golden Dawn. The question is not that a connection can be seen, but rather how these are supposed to support a "bardic ORIGIN for the tarot".

 

[DianeOD]

Pardon my levity. Perhaps after adding that (last) sentence, I should have added a smiley.

But surely, this thread is now about creating a 'bardic' series of correspondences for modern users to add to those they already associate with their cards.

Such an approach being entirely in keeping with medieval mnemonic attitudes, I rather like to encourage those who develop another.

On the point of original uses in western Europe, I think my own position's already clear enough. But I can scarcely think of a 'wrong' series if we're talking about creating a modern deck.

PS - And the reference to Bernard was less random that you might think.

 

[venicebard]

Okay, if you think about it, 13th century in a European perspective is very modern, recent history. French is a dialect of Latin, using Roman letters. The first Authurian romances appearing in any French dialect show up about a thousand years after Gaul became Roman. Do you think any knowledge or use of anything to do with tree letters would have survived over a thousand years of speaking Latin?

Ties between the Kelts of Britain and those of (especially southern) 'Gaul' remained close; but no, I would imagine the tree-alphabet was brought there in the same way Arthur and Tristan were, by itinerate bards from Britain (meaning Wales, where something of an Irish revival was underway in the north). For while Geoffrey of Monmouth popularized the legend, much of the material incorporated into Arthurian romance originated in British poetic tradition (though scholars disagree on precisely how much).

Interesting about 'lingua franca': I wasn't aware of that.

Langue d'oil (Northern) and langue d'oc (Provençal) dialects were not very different from eachother, and certainly mutually intelligible (understandable to eachother). However I would imagine that languages that would have been spoken by bards would have been totally different and unintelligible to speakers of all French dialects.

No, French was the court language of England, remember. If I live long enough, I am going to study Provencal and seek direct evidence of bardic influence in Troubadour poetry, since I've already found limited evidence (such as Alienor's grandfather's use of 'hawthorn' and 'hail', bardic and runic H respectively, in the same line).

This is strange that the alphabet should go the opposite way than the sounds it represents. Early indo-european, as I was taught, had no phonemic vowels: rather they later arose in the vicinity of the pharyngeal consonants.

Opposite way? It is Semitic (and Egyptian, of course, as well as Libyan and early ogham) that omitted vowels (albeit yod and vav and alef and even heh often had vowel force). The Indo-European languages all adopted alphabets with vowels (save for early ogham, that is, oh and Tifinag, true), so I'm not quite sure what it is you're getting at.

As I said, venicebard, I can see how one can perceive the figure as though it were an additional arm.

Here is another Conver Pope (and Emperor - only because the two have been uploaded together from Kenji's early imprint):

Can you here see how the lines are perhaps more likely to be part of the cape? Same woodcut as the other Conver, by the way - just different colourist.

Yes, here the colorer obviously wanted to disguise it . . . but the shape is still there (a tapered sleeve). I find it difficult to believe the shape is not there for a reason, considering it is not there on the other 'cardinal'.

Nigel Pennick, "Games of the Gods" has a section on Ogham (pp.95-100 inclusive in my edition).
. . .
Dates
Dec 24 - Jan 20; Jan 21 - Feb 17; Feb 18 - Mar 18; Mar 19 - Apr 14; Apr 15 - May 12; May 13 - Jun 9; Jun 10 - Jul 7; July 8 - Aug 4; Aug 5 - Sep 1; Sep 2 - Sep 29; Sep 30 - Oct 27; Oct 28 - Nov 25; Nov 26 - Dec 23.
. . .
Winter Solstice (1) Vernal Equinox Summer Solstice Autumnal Equinox Winter Solstice (2)

The dates tabulation there is sloppy (and surely should start the day immediately following the solstice). As for seasons, yes, his is one interpretation; but deeper analysis (and applying Sefer Yetzirah to it) has led me to the following:

Ii-mistletoe . . . winter solstice (capricorn)
U-heather . . . summer solstice (cancer)
O-furze . . . drives spring from leo (hottest time of year, symbolizing the application of heat to the [alchemical] vessel)
E-aspen . . . signifies autumn's transition, as scorpio (or angle from libra thereto)
I-yew . . . sagittary, since Samhain (Hallowe'en) marks winter's start to Kelts (and sagittary is the first sign following Samhain)
A-fir . . . the yuletide fir, its station, rather, is the center of the wheel, since its being the tallest tree identifies it as axis mundi, its evergreen nature symbolizing what remains constant through the entire round.

Note: yew also is evergreen, but whereas fir stands for height -- a distance measured in feet -- yew stands for longevity -- a distance measured in centuries -- and thus for old age, and for death/rebirth (since its branches can dig into the earth to make new roots).

Ogham characters have a numerical correspondence as well, 1'I'lated to the symbolic functions of number which existed before the appropriation of number by mathematicians.
A= 1; O = 4; U = 5; E = 2; I = 3.

No, in fact where one would expect U to be 5, its place is taken by B. The meaning of this is quite clear: U-heather being love's consummation (the full moon), its replacement at 5 by B-birch or birth represents its result (offspring), and U itself, not included in Graves's list (which goes from 0 to 16), occupies 5th-from-the-end or 17, which marked coming-of-age in ancient Ireland. Implied confirmation of this surmise of mine comes in the form of the letter-list given by one of the (Welsh) bards consulted in The Barddas of Iolo Morganwg, which gives 1-16 in numerical order then says the next two added were H and U: H is 0 and U is 17 (I surmise), the two numbers which surround 1-16.

Also the motif of the bard as "mellifluous" (Gk.Honey-tongued):- saint Bernard, whose epithet was this, has the beehive as one of his identifying emblems... connections are looking interesting...

Hmm. About the right time, too, if I recall correctly. Of course Gaul was noted for its schools of rhetoric (inherited from love of poetry) even after incorporation into the Roman Empire, making the Troubadour era in essence a revival.

 

[kwaw]

Collectanea De Rebus Hibernicis

CONTAINING
I. A further VINDICATION of the Ancient History of Ireland.

II. An Essay on the Language of the Gypsies of Bohemia, England, &c. &c.

III. A second Essay on the Round Towers of Ireland.

IV. An Account of several Ogham Inscriptions.

V. An Essay on the Money of the Ancient Irish.

By GENERAL CHARLES VALLANCEY, AUTHOR OF THE VINDICATION OF THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF IRELAND; OF A PROSPECTUS OF A DICTIONARY
THE IRISH LANGUAGE, COMPARED WITH THE CHALDEAN, ARABIC, ISV.

Is available online through google books

http://www.google.co.uk/books?id=VSY2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA1&dq=PPP7,M1

vol.III

http://www.google.co.uk/books?id=8G4BAAAAYAAJ&pg=PP11&dq=PPP7,M1

Kwaw

 

[firemaiden]

If I live long enough, I am going to study Provencal and seek direct evidence of bardic influence in Troubadour poetry, since I've already found limited evidence (such as Alienor's grandfather's use of 'hawthorn' and 'hail', bardic and runic H respectively, in the same line).

You can read Guillaume IX's verses here. Only eleven poems survive.

Is this the verse you have in mind where there is mention of hawthorn?

La nostr'amor vai enaissi
com la brancha de l'albespi
qu'esta sobre l'arbre en treman
la noit a la ploia ez al gel
tro l'endeman que-l sols s'espan
per las folhas vertz el ramel.​

in modern French: (from the same web page)

Ainsi va-t-il de notre amour
comme de la branche d'aubépine
qui la nuit sur l'arbuste tremble
à la pluie et au gel
jusqu'à ce que le lendemain le soleil se répande
dans les feuilles vertes sur le rameau.​

English translation (mine):

Our love is like the branch of the hawthorn which by night trembles on the bush in the rain and the frost, until the next day sun spreads through the green leaves of the branch.​

The word "hawthorn" is "albespi" (aubépine). You mentioned it occurs with "hail". I do not see any hail in this verse, but I do see "gel" (providing of course, that the web page is correct) - which means frost. (The word for hail, by the way, is "la grêle" with an R.)

Venicebard: Be very careful about making connections to foreign letters while using English translations --- it makes absolutely no sense to connect "albespi" and "gel" to the letter H.

 

[DianeOD]

Kwaw - what a *gorgeous* book you found.

I do love the 'antiquarian' genre. So full of masculinity, and verve!

I'm going to add this one to my "virtual collection" - which began I might add with a book of Victorian epic poetry...Lots of military routs termed heroic victories, and ladies dying of consumption. Ah! those were the days...

 

[venicebard]

Venicebard: Be very careful about making connections to foreign letters while using English translations --- it makes absolutely no sense to connect "albespi" and "gel" to the letter H.

Yeah, but you have to admit that it is rather striking to find even something as close to hail as rain and frost -- which could pass for a rough discription of it -- juxtaposed (though admittedly only in the same stanza, not line, I 'misspoke') with hawthorn. Both hail and hedge mean what blocks the way, what separates one from one's goal (as long as it ramain an external one), here used ironically n'est ce pas? But you're right: I shall be wary of overstating things -- even slightly -- in future.

Kwaw - what a *gorgeous* book you found.

I second that (off to read more of it as we speak).

 

[Bernice]

Hi VeniceBard,

I've just backtracked in this thread and read one of your Celtic/Hebrew posts. It's getting late so I may not have read it properly (apologies if this so).

Just to make sure I'm understanding; are you using the Celtic/Ogham Tree Alphabet as one of your sources. Beth, Nun... and their tree/plant associations?

Bee

 

[venicebard]

Hi VeniceBard,

...Just to make sure I'm understanding; are you using the Celtic/Ogham Tree Alphabet as one of your sources. Beth, Nun... and their tree/plant associations?

Bee

Yes, specifically the 'bethluisnion' (B L N F S H D T K M G P R plus Ss Kk, and A O U E I plus the Aa and Ii Robert Graves hypothesized (in The White Goddess, based on 'palm' being ailm also (like 'fir', A), on mistletoe being ixias in Greek and very important to Gauls, and on the dolmen as Graves saw it needing two more doubled letters at the corners -- of threshold A O U E I, side B L N F, top S H D T K, and side M G Ng R -- to go along with Ss and Kk (Q the apple, still visible in the Latin character we use). What confirms Graves in this is partly the fact that yod in square Hebrew hovers above the line just as mistletoe hovers above the ground (being rooted, rather, in a tree). Graves missed this and thought yod was idho, 'yew' (I).

Bardic tradition had numerical order (with those in parentheses my surmises based on the obvious): H = 0, then (starting with 1) A E I O B M P F K G T D N L R S (U Q Ii Ss Aa). P is in place of ogham's Ng; Aa becomes teyt or theta (rune *dagaz, 'day', the present); I hardens to zayin or zeta; and samekh replaces F at aries, so: cheyt = 0, then alef heh zayin ayin beyt mem peh samekh kaf gimel tav dalet nun lamedh reysh shin vav qof yod tzaddi teyt.

Hope this helps.