study group application ~ Sagittarius

[Moongold]

Another go at interpreting the chart.

I’m a Sagittarian but when I read astrological literature I’m struck by the contradictions. I guess they make life interesting.

Retrograde Saturn and Pluto could explain a natural introversion. The Sagittarian light heartedness and ease comes to me more with close friends and intimate relationships but definitely not in large groups. I value freedom and independence and used to find it hard to commit to anything. That has changed significantly in the last few years.

Moon in Pisces (3rd House) and Neptune in Libra (11th) House give me an interest in spirituality that has been life long and in psychic exploration which is fairly recent. Mercury in Sagittarius (11th House) gave me the gift of communication but again it took 20 years to learn how to use this LOL. Mars in Virgo (10th House) has given me the gift of analysis and a sometimes crippling desire for perfection which I’ve agonised over for years!

Uranus opposing the Sun has also given me the mixed blessing of non-conformity and, when I was younger, a tendency to rebel which has changed over the years to scepticism. Amazing how things change as you get older. The theme of shooting oneself in the foot is a regular one but that has lessened considerably now as well (Thank God). Of course one sees that more clearly withhindsight.

They’re the main themes. Capricorn ascending and a few other things have given me a liking for structure but a natural tendency to challenge it as well.

I’d like to reflect a little more on the similarities and differences of tarot but I’m too tired! Would be interested in others’ views.

Isthmus, hope you weren't addressingy our last question to me. I don't understand it (LOL) but back to the books and I will be Sunday evening!

Moongold

 

[Minderwiz]

Lunalafey.

With ten planets and twelve signs at least two signs are going to be 'unoccupied', though it is possible that one could be taken up with the Ascendant and the second with the MC.

What matters is not that each sign is occupied but the balance of elements (triplicities), the balance of modalities or qualities (quadruplicities) and the yin/yang (masculine/feminine or negative and positive ) balance.


No planets in Sagittarius of itself is of little if any significance, however no planets in fire signs, or no planets in mutable signs is significant. The same of course holds for the other elements and modalities.

Always start your reading from the overall balances, then go on and examine each planet, and house.

What you are looking for is themes that emerge from your chart - one indication that you are, say impulsive, or prone to moods should not be taken as evidence that this is indeed the case. Three of four indications that you are impulsive or prone to moods suggests that there is a good chance that this is the case.

Work through methodically then look at what you have found to identify the themes.

 

[Minderwiz]

Moongold,

Taking your interest in spirituality first, I would ascribe this to your strong twelfth House which includes the Sun, Mercury and Jupiter all in Sagittarius.

The twelfth House, amongst other things shows our aspirations to merge with something greater than ourselves - the universal spirit, for want of a better expression.

The Sun indicates your creativity and will power - this in the twelfth has that spiritual merging as its objective. Jupiter here is very strong, as the ruler of Sagittarius and also the ruler of the twelfth - your personal growth and development as a member of society is strongly linked to this area of your life. Mercury here will mean that you can communicate your ideas and thoughs on these matters easily, and can conceptualise the spiritual in your mind. Both Jupiter and Mercury are sextile to Neptune, which is likely to give a boost to the spiritual aspiration - Neptune is also the 'natural' ruler of the twelfth if you take modern sign rulerships and Jupiter is the natural ruler of the twelfth if you take the traditional sign rulerships - either way you have a strong spiritual orientation.

I'm not sure how you are interpeting introversion - I would have guessed from your chart that you are extrovert - though this won't be easily apparant given your Capricorn Ascendant.

Mars in Virgo is not particularly happy. Mars wants to go off and do things now or at least do things soon. Virgo wants to ensure that plans to do anything are in triplicate, have been triple checked and that maybe they should be rechecked again just in case. Indeed Mars may find it difficult to act because Virgo is so self critical and modest. Nevertheless when Mars has to act Virgo will ensure that the plans are there for things to go right.

Virgo also wants to serve others and Mars is not really one for service - again though properly harnessed Mars provides the drive to ensure that service is provided. Virgo is a worrier - the modern classic Virgo complaint is Iritable Bowel Syndrome. Mars drive my intensify the worry.

In your case I have Mars in the ninth - not the tenth. Foriegn trave and/or higher education or philosophy are where you can assert yourself (in a modest way) - do you have meticulous plans for any long distance trips?

 

[isthmus nekoi]

moongold,

Oh, yes, the question is open to the floor! To clarify, finding dispositers basically 'links' up your chart. I believe you can do this both by sign and house.

ie. Saturn in Aries (mars) will lead to Mars in Aquarius (uran) which goes to Uranus in Taurus (venus) will lead to Venus in Libra (venus). b/c venus is in her 'home' sign, she is the planet all the others 'disposit' to and I've read this gives her special significance. In my case, all my planets disposit to a Jupiter/Venus mutual reception (except mars/uran b/c they're also in mutual reception). Mutual reception is when 2 planets are in each other's signs ie. I've Jupiter in Libra (venus), Venus in Sag (jup). The significance given to this varies from book to book.

Back to your chart. I think you mentioned this already, but Sag has a tendancy to be blunt in communication, not in a vindictive way, but in an enthusiastic, maybe a bit too honest way. Merc there gives the touch of speed and therefore, yes, you might blurt things out faster than you consider the consequences of what you're saying.

The freedom/indy vibe may come from uran's opposing a Sag sun. Unless you're using a super wide orb, that should place uran in Gemini, so we're talking a communicable need for independence that's positively electric ^_~. If your ASC is cap, that should put Gemini cusping your 6th house; you may find yourself needing this freedom esp in terms of work. Merc rules Gemini here, so you might've had problems being outspoken (sag/merc) and unusual (uran) w/coworkers and such.

 

[Moongold]

Thanks for your comments, Minderwiz and Isthmus,

The Mars in Virgo thing is interesting and I laughed out loud again at the identification. If one has a tendency to something - say the analytical, self-critical aspect - would the presence of Mars also make that tendency quite strong? I guess a number of factors could make a particular tendency stronger, some of them astrological some environmental - and it could apply to any quality in any chart.

I'm really not extroverted, Minderwiz. Right at the end of the *I* in MBTI for example. I've never been able to explain the apparent contradiction but thought it might have something to do with Capricorn Ascending and the influence of the other things I mentioned.

The reference to travel is interesting. Perhaps next year I'll be doing something and in my new job I travel a lot more.

As we do this, it is apparent that a the capacity to integrate a fairly detailed knowledge of meaning and characteristics with intuition is essential to good interpretation. I think that in astrology you have to *hold* a lot more things in your mind in order to make a a good interpretation than you do with Tarot, but that possibly demonstrates my relative newness to Tarot. Perhaps the visual image on the cards helps with those associations, whereas there isn't a similar trigger with astrology.

Thanks for the explanation of the language, Isthmus. It is a completely different language which takes a little getting used to.

I decided this morning to go and get some index cards to start organizing the knowledge that way. It's much easier to cross reference and update with such a system I think. How do others retain and organize all the detail and associations that come with this work?

Many thanks,

Moongold

 

[isthmus nekoi]

Moongold,

You're very welcome!

I'm guessing from the many placements in 12th that this might have something to do w/your introversion... although yes, Sag cusping your 12th would indicate extroversion... Hm. I find introvert/extrovert is not as easy to interpret as the energies of the elements. Despite Mars (!) conj my Aquarian ASC, and Aries cusping my 3rd, I consider myself introverted. I am not shy in any way, in fact I'm quite outspoken... My Aqu persona is usually very open and social. But I like being alone and I find large parties draining and boring. I have Sun/merc in 12th plus lots of Scorpio energy in my chart so maybe this is why....

For me, I find the main difference w/astrology and tarot is that tarot seems to work on the level of image, whereas astrology is more abstract and language based. While I find keywords very helpful in astrology, they are somewhat restrictive in tarot if you can't get beyond them. In tarot, I find you *must* return to the image and if the image speaks to you in a way that is totally different from accepted key words, you can run w/it while simultaneously retaining the card's more 'formal' meaning. I don't think astrology has this same kind of ambiguity. Having said that... both systems work w/the *symbol* and I think this is where they are similar.

I think chart interpretation can be overwhelming at first. In tarot, you can have simple spreads, and you can throw the whole deck. I think the approach of utilizing the elements and modalities like Minderwiz has suggested in his other thread is akin to starting w/a very basic but revealing 3 card spread. It's simple yes, but damn it's powerful if you get to know it well. Once you get a handle on the concepts of element/modality, you can start synthesizing and building upon them. My advice is to try not to get caught up in the little details and look for the meta themes that run through each chart. Once you have the basic core structures and themes, you can start looking at the details w/o losing yourself in them. This is my natural approach to the celtic cross so I've sort of applied it to astrology... I think if you're finding all this info a bit much, give it time. These concepts might take awhile to absorb, and it's best not to try to cram it all in at once. Plus there's no hurry. These threads aren't going anywhere... I hope that later on, ppl will go back to the Scorpio stuff and find it more helpful than before.

The index card thing sounds like an excellent idea. In fact, Aquarian Goddess suggested this in another thread.... If you'd like to share what you put on them, that'd be great! Hm, how am I assimilating all this info? Well, I haven't written much down, but I've been reading up quite extensively on the subject. Lately, astrology has been coming up in my dreams, so I think my uncon is actively filtering through the info, making connections. Had a really great Scorpio dream that linked up to alchemy very nicely a couple weeks back. This is a major help. The more my uncon participates in learning something, the less effort it takes on my part. Actually, considering the group's only been on for about 2 months, wow, I've learned *a lot*! I hope others have too...

OK, now I've gotta be a good student and go study. Two tests next week!! Ta!

 

[Minderwiz]

just to take up the issue of extrovert/introvert - my understanding of the psychology is that extroverts are object oriented and take their 'stimuli' for want of a better expression from the outside world. The extrovert says 'how can I fit into the outside world', whereas the introvert is subject oriented, draws their concepts and stimuli from inside and says 'how does the outside world fit around me'.

The every day use of someone who is quiet, passive and finds it difficult to relate to others as an 'introvert' is not the psychological definition. Introverts can be very sociable and extroverts very unsociable. The introvert takes the validation of the world around them from how it affects them, the extrovert from how they relate to it. This is a very crude representation but I think it's basically correct.

Astrologically, Fire and Air signs are taken as being 'extrovert' and Earth and Fire as being 'introvert' your element balance should indicate where you are on the scale - though this could clearly be somewhere in the middle with a 5/5 or 6/4 split of your ten planets.

The above view appears to be reasonably widely accepted. A second Astrological approach to introversion/extroversion is to look at the number of planets above the horizon (Ascendant/Descendant line) if more are above than below, this is taken as symbolising extroversion, if more are below then it symbolises introversion.

 

[lunalafey]

INTROVERT

minder, you say a faily equal split of the elements and planets above and below the horizon? Leave it to me to be an extream. I have 1 planet in fire. 1 in air, but my MC is in air. 6planets in earth with the AC, and just 2 in water. 8planets below the horizon and only 2 above.

I found interesting associations with the Sag. 4th house/ planet combination. The land/property issue kept repeating itself and the placement of everything seemed to tell the story of my relationship with my father. I'm still working on putting this signs/months findings together in post form.

 

[Moongold]

Hello again,

Minderwiz, I agree with your understanding of introversion /extroversion but completely overlooked your reference to that in your earlier post. I do process things internally and relate to the world from an observing perspective. Observation and analysis are my greatest gifts and pleasures in a professional sense. MBTI is INFP.

Referring to your earlier observation that the birth chart displays natal promise I guess people change and accommodate personal characteristics along life's pathway, according to circumstance. MBTI recognises that explicitly when it describes typology as preference .

Forgive me, but I just hadn't remembered that Pisces is the sign ruling the 12th House and that Sagittarius actually rules the 9th. Why were some of the associations changed? My text points out that they were but gives no explanation.

I still think it would be great if there was some place on Aeclectic or somewhere else where people's charts could be displayed and we could look at them while reading the posts. What happened to your suggestion, Minderwiz? It seemed like a nice one.

I think astrology will be a long learning process but an enjoyable one. There is lot to integrate and remember, but I know that astrology is indicative, not fixed, and that gives it attraction and more credibility, I think.

Having said that, Isthmus, I like your explanation as to the differences between Tarot and Astrology. Tarot does come much more from within, from intuition, I think and the tarot images reference that.

I have begun to read tarot spreads as you describe and also like the Celtic Cross for that reason - it gives you more of a narrative . I am a long way from doing that with astrology charts.

It would be really good if there was a simple manual giving more information about the meaning of words and concepts. Some of the web sites have clear and simple explanations. Maybe one just has to do the detail slog, however, for learning's sake.

Thanks again. These discussions are really good for learning.

Moongold

 

[Minderwiz]

Moongold

Hello again,


I think astrology will be a long learning process for me, but an enjoyable one.

When you start doing Astrology there does seem so much to learn. I found that once I was clear on the basic methods of chart analysis and the basic meanings of signs, planets and houses things became much easier.

When I first started I read lots of in depth books and became confused. When you start out its better to keep at the simplest level possible, and even then you build up a quite a lot of data.

Keep to the basic principles till you can begin to read the 'picture' of the chart and then begin to develop from your experience, your reading and perhaps most of all, your intuition.

Also try reading a chart of someone else and then asking them how close you got - this can be frightening first time but when you begin to get good hits it really does reinforce the self confidence.

I still rarely read my own chart for myself, or my wife and daughter's charts, because I find it difficult to separate the Astrological pointers from my own preconceptions of what we are like. Reading for a stranger, where you have no preconceptions makes you keep to the Astrological thread, and you don't get side tracked.

Keep at it and then one day suddenly things go click. And keep looking for Tarot links because I found the reverse helpful - reading Tarot after having learned Astrology.