Tarot: Predictive or something far deeper

[Gavriela]

If it's strangers - usually give them an e-mail addy and ask them to get back to me on how things worked out. About 14 out of 15 do. I keep records, and at least jot down cards/date/interp for most readings - I've occasionally not had a chance but usually I can manage that much. And strangers often turn into clients.

There are a good number of predictive readers out there who actually know what they're doing, some of them aeclectic members, some not. But since the bias at this forum, and in the Anglo-world generally, is to psychological reading, you don't hear much about predictive here except in a few of the oracle and Marseille threads as a rule. Sometimes you'll see things in the 'Your Readings' section, though - it's not that weird. Cards were used predictively for a long time before the neo-Jungians decided to psychologise tarot, and I daresay nobody local would come to a reader without a question - that's just the culture here - it's mostly not Anglo.

Which is not to say tarot can't be used psychologically. I'm sure it can, though not by me. I've used it magically, and that's pretty close to psychology in some cases, but I'm not a psychological reader as a rule - sometimes it comes into readings, but I don't take it to the level of professional counselling, I'm not qualified to do so, nor do I wish to be a psychologist.

 

[mac22]

Is it fair to either the Tarot or the Reader's skills to use a 3 card spread for in-depth insight or prediction? I prefer a few more cards for such a reading.

Of course your mileage may vary...

Mac22

 

[Phoenix Rising]

I remember doing a reading a few years ago for a girl, This was a time when I was just starting out. The cards from what I can remember

Hidden Influences: Queen of swords
Outside influences: death
Long time future: 3 swords
Positive influences: Knight of wands
Outcome: Empress


The girl in question was stabbed 3 times (3 swords) by a woman who had mental problems (QSwords), the Knight came to her aid, as it was done in broad daylight in a Government office in front of everyone. This of course, changed her life (death), she is afraid to work. She left to live with her mother (empress), and incidently became pregnant a year later.
Now those cards do indicate the stabbing, but I certainly didn't think at the time "you will be stabbed by a mental woman, and someone will come to your aid"

Maybe if there were more cards drawn for Heidi, it may have shown the events leading up to the 3 cards she had drawn. It looks as though those 3 cards were the result. Pain and sorrow connected with a materialistic man, which will give her a real eye opener.

I think too the group had made an assumption that the 3 swords in that case was to do with her recent grief. Assumptions, can make mistakes, instead of just reading the cards. Of course it didn't show a Bank robbery, because there wasn't enough cards drawn.

The cards "don't lie" it's just up to the ones interpreting it, using a good spread or questioning it right.

 

[Heavensent]

Good topic Umbrae!

From what I can tell in the article, Heidi wasn't robbed so there'd be no reason for the cards to predict a bank robbery. She was frightened and traumatized, but there could have been many events which produced a similar response given she was in a greiving state.

I think her original prediction was correct. She did go through an awakening related to the death of her father and his financial affairs (she most likely would not have been in the bank had he been alive).

To expect the cards to give very specific details of one particular event seems to me to stretch the bounds of logic.

Heidi indicated she wondered why the cards didn't indicate a dangerous and traumatic event. I think Judgement does indicate a traumatic event.

As far as dangerous, everyone's opinion of danger is different. It can be dangerous to get in a car and get on the highway. I'm sure she does that all the time and doesn't consider herself in danger. She was in the same room as someone with a gun. It was never aimed at her nor was she shot at so although she had great, great fear, it doesn't appear she was in danger.

To go back afterward and say the Three of Swords was related to the revolving door seems to be stretching an interpretation to me. To say the cards seemed to indicate more a psychological after the fact aspect would be true, because the significance of the event occured in Heidi's psyche and not her physical environment. No lasting physical trauma happened.

The cards were predictive, but not detailed on the specifics of how the prediction would play out.

I totally agree with you Zannamarie. The cards told her what she needed to know. Readers are NOT the "Amazing Kreskin(sp?)" no matter how bad someone wants us to be. If spirit always told us the bad and how to avoid it, we as humans would never learn or grow from life's difficulties. If we had our choice we would always avoid and that's not what life is about. The reading was about her and her father, not the bank. Now if she asked about what may happen while she was handling her father's affairs at the bank, well then she may have gotten a different answer. Once again, Heidi got what spirit wanted her to know.

 

[Demon Goddess]

I think (even moreso this past year) that Tarot truly is about exploring the feelings and emotions surrounding incidents, moreso than the incidents themselves.

Do you remember in 91 when we were all reading in the weeks coming up to 9/11 and everyone kept getting the Tower? Same thing... Could any of us have predicted what happened on that date? I doubt it. With 20/20 hindsight, the weird physical connection that was the tower coming down, fit beautifully, but it certainly was NOT then, nor is it now something that anyone could predict.

I think it's important too, at some point for us to realize that how we feel about any incident is far more important than the incident itself. As for the cards... they'll fit perfectly to any incident after the fact, but someone'd have to be pretty darned accurately intuitive to pick up on the Knight of Pents being a bank robber; and if you meet them... Give me their phone number so I can save me and my customers some serious time with pathwork studies!

 

[Gavriela]

I think it was 2001, not 1991. I was in US airspace when it happened - because it was the only way to get from point A to point B.

Don't recall getting the Tower or anything especially foreboding, but I don't live in the US.

If that were the case, though, given the wars and terrorism world wide, wouldn't everyone get Tower/Devil/other nasty cards every day for their daily card? I'm assuming you're talking about people who were not at the scene of the tragedy pulling bad cards for weeks ahead of time.

No disrespect to anyone who was there - some of my friends were, as well as some people on this board. It just seems strange, given the givens of how the world is if only that particular act of terrorism showed up in your cards, while other ones don't.

 

[lilangel09]

Is it fair to either the Tarot or the Reader's skills to use a 3 card spread for in-depth insight or prediction? I prefer a few more cards for such a reading.

Of course your mileage may vary...

Mac22

I think it's fine to use 1, 2, or 3 cards for an in-depth reading, but then of course, it depends on how you read. In my opinion, 1-2 card readings can be very in-depth and even life-changing.

 

[Rosanne]

A Theme I have been thinking about for some weeks now and a great exploration- Thanks Umbrae and of course Mary Greer who ended her topic on her blog with this sentence...

So, is tarot best at prediction (since it is too often a hit-or-miss proposition), or is it more ideal for reliably exploring the deeper significance of whatever does happen?

In a reading snapshot that I gave in the thread "Tarot of the 'Hindsight" in Talking Tarot I said I gave a one card reading for a friend over a year ago now, before she was getting married. They were a volatile couple and always arguing- at that time over which Church the nuptials would be held. The card drawn was the Tower (sometimes known as the House of God). It explained their current differences and their explosive natures. I had serious concerns over the outcome of their relationship anyway from a commonsense point of view. On their 1st anniversary this year they separated in a nuclear explosion, that ending up through revenge in the destruction of their property. Both were equally to blame and both lost in a major way. The wedding was in April as was their implosion this year. I often have noted the Tower for April.
Now, I had an inkling this would be the outcome- but I would never had the balls to say what commonsense was telling me about my friends- nor would they have listened. I guess this was their journey, and they chose to learn their lessons this way. If Heidi in the Blog had been warned about the robbery, even if the reading was that specific, the path was already in motion- so I guess in the case of my reading it was more important to explore the deeper significance of the outcome- rather than the prediction the Tower foretold.
~Rosanne

 

[Rosanne]

oops I forgot to add.
If the cards had described the Robbery- not yet happened, one would assume that Heidi would not have gone to the bank, or would have been paralysed by inaction- so the cards would not have foretold her involvement with the Robbery- except that in reading about the Robbery Heidi may well have thought....."Hells Teeth what a lucky break, I might have been there!" Then the reading would not have been about her, it seems to me. To me, the cards would have shown her not at the bank, if anyone understands my garbled back to the future take. ~Rosanne

 

[Cerulean]

Am thinking what Umbrae and others said...hopefully in context...

...what Umbrae said...

I believe that the limitation in the predictive aspect (“Everyone in class agreed that they could never have predicted a bank robbery from the cards Heidi had drawn.”), is due to the overuse of the WCS cards. The illustrations limit predictive interpretive language.

and what Gavriela said...

I think the lesson is to know what you want to do with reading, and follow the studies/experience that will get you there. If you want to do psychological readings, do those, be very clear about what you do, and you and your clients will usually be a good match - if you're any good. Not everyone is going to be any good.

If you want to do predictive work, then study that. Assume that you're not getting it if your predictions are so bad that you consistently get it wrong. Not everyone is going to be good at that, either. But assuming you are good, advertise your services honestly, and your clients will usually be a good match, too.

Not everyone can learn to read proficiently, regardless the system. That's just how it is....

.........
I can say honestly that there were very few times that I had a funny guess that turned curiously apt. I once wrote a reading out with the number of children someone had...and it came when I was using a very pretty Fournier reprint of a 40-card Latin-suited deck and for that reading, it was a lucky guess.

The other time I think a reading went well is when I counted in the Autumn Equinox (time of year) and thoughts on a new project someone started...the deck was fully illustrated (Celtic Tarot). The cards fell in a pattern of utter beauty that ached for a story.

But that isn't normal for me to run wilder in readings...like it is for the wonderful readers who know their strengths and aspects of reading...and can feel the questions of their clients even before the question is formed.

I don't know if it was the illustrations on the cards--Hooked on TDM--had a great point that 'they gave up before they even started' in terms of even working on a 'predictive' aspect of the reading.

I doubt that I'd have a flash of predictive insight in a classroom setting if most of the discussion and other readers were geared toward psychological aspects of a reading and suggesting practical answers. I tend to be that kind of reader in general.

I think though, the deck illustration as a starting point--so that the readers and querent were on the same page--has some merit in a classroom situation.
But the group think might limit 'predictive insight'.

Now if someone could teach predictive reading and flashes of insight, tell me where the class is and how can I plug into your current?

Just some musings, hopefully in context...

Cerulean