The Four Worlds/The Four Suits - the Order

[ravenest]

My 2nd 'issue';

Ravenest! that was astute..

I know ... it was in response to a point you seemed to be trying to make.

even though you postulated practices that are GD

you left out the smilie - ha har!

you did a fine job. the personality is weak when not anchored to very advanced spiritual beings. i think the question of the four worlds inherently hints at this root of subtle planes

it is not good to try experiments in ritual that take lots of background teaching. in the hermetic priesthood initiates have to listen to lots and lots of theoria till they even experience initiation.

" THE hermetic priesthood' ? Which one? In the Hermetic priesthood I was involved with (hence my use of 'the' - it isn’t the only one) aspirant Priests and Priestesses not only. 'have to listen to lots and lots of theoria' (not that they would put it that way), but study, learn, be examined and passed, take years in process and go about the real initiation; intersecting that with your real life imitation / experience, which, after all is something we all are experiencing, regardless of titles or awards. Then you not only listen, you learn and gain knowledge, develop understanding and apply it as wisdom. Many people do this in various forms.

The priestess vow is not just to study and progress him/herself, it is to assist others if they are needed ... and others come from all walks of life, not just in one's monastery or class or country.

because the moment the other worlds are approached, the other beings have a vested interest in your delusion and torment! black adepts since the days of atlantis have disincarnated

There you go again. You left out the smilie. If you don’t put that in people might get the wrong idea,

only to sap energy from those who are unable to protect themselves. usually we are blind to their pull, but when you practice THEURGY you open up...

your on their turf then!

Yes, well that stance is not that uncommon a part of the occult schools tradition. I am more of a practical type and see base problems relating to social and class structure ... a matter of 'mammalian politics' so I seek a 'magical/political' solution (and hence 'flavour') - in such matters (whether they are seen as 'valid' or 'artistic expressions'). *

its easy to say things and examine them to ad nauseam, but what do you do with your "knowledge" this is the real point. i can blab terms and lots of words but that does nothing. initiatic science is special because of its inner structures, its this factual basis your work is done.

Huh!? My work?

like i said it takes years of study and certain affinities created before the initiand is ready. you cant possibly understand

I cant?

that which hasn’t been revealed yet, that’s the ionian initiation which is the actual thing done, your area of expertise is dorian, meaning THEORY the language of the mysteries are not shared with the masses

How do you know what my area of expertise is? WE are the' masses' - this looks like social / class consciousness stuff?

to do so is disasterous and foolish, i cant tell you what to do because its not permitted but i will talk about ehat happens any time

Does it have anything to do with Marlow's version of Faust by chance

* E. g.

LET IT BE KNOWN that there exists, unknown to the great crowd, a very ancient Order of sages, whose object is the amelioration and spiritual evolution of mankind by means of conquering error and aiding men and women in their efforts of attaining the power of recognising the truth. This Order has existed already in the most remote times and it has manifested its activity secretly and openly in the world under different names and in various forms: it has caused social and political revolutions and proved to be the rock of salvation in times of danger and misfortune. It has always upheld the banner of freedom against tyranny in whatever shape this appeared, whether as clerical or political or social despotism or oppression of any kind.

To this "secret order" every wise and spiritually enlightened person belongs by right of his or her nature: because they all, even if they are personally unknown to each other, are one in their purpose and object and they all work under the guidance of the one light of truth. Into this Sacred Society no one can be admitted by another unless he has the power to enter it himself by virtue of his own interior illumination, neither can anyone after he has once entered be expelled unless he should expel himself by becoming unfaithful to his principles and forget again the truths which he has learned by his own experience.
All this is known to every enlightened person.
- Theodor Reuss

 

[GnosticTarotCards]

Har Har!

i shouldnt be talking this way in an open forum anyway. sometimes i underestimate the willingness to learn in Kabbalistic forums.. especially in the form of questions.

Ah! Now I’ve done Philosophy,

I’ve finished Law and Medicine, 355

And sadly even Theology:

Taken fierce pains, from end to end.

Now here I am, a fool for sure!


No wiser than I was before:

i will post more in depth when im not on a android device

 

[ravenest]

Sound hermetic principle that!

The Fools journey does end where it began, as does the initiates.

But thats the dif ... an experience has been gained ... here we still are, back where we began, but we have learned something,

The Sufi dance of life is an upwards spiriling cone.

... and all that ... regardless;

I find the Skinner stuff interesting and may well, when I have time, start drawing up some new trees.

I'm not stuck anywhere in any particular outlook or 'school' or (except the 'school' of life).

I did mention I have my own particular 'Tree' structure and varient attributions. When I look further at other systems I might find reasonings similar to the ones that caused me to adapt to mine.

Would I then go about doing readings with my Thoth with the new attributions in mind?

No.

Would I then, instead, go about making my own new Tarot?

Maybe one day - it would incorparate what I feel is valid, for the present.

 

[Richard]

......I do not post in these Jewish mysticism forums much......

Good Lord! Have I been posting in a forum for Jewish mystics?

...but somewhere along this path The question was asked "The order of the four worlds" in relation to Tarot suits. Traditionally it is said Azilut is the element of Fire, Beriah is Air, Yezirah is Water and Asiyyah is Earth and can be explained by the usual understandable words of Calling-Creating-Forming-Making......

The Fire-Water-Air-Earth ordering is traditional too. Maybe traditional is not necessarily correct. Or maybe it should be the traditional AT way: Everybody and everything is right; nobody and nothing is wrong. If it's true for you, that's all that matters (even if it summons all the demons of hell to drag you to your doom).

 

[ravenest]

Good Lord! Have I been posting in a forum for Jewish mystics?

Much much worse than that ... a forum for tarot reading kabbalists mainly in the tradition of Western Hermetic Kabbalah ... (actually has little to do with QBL )

The Fire-Water-Air-Earth ordering is traditional too. Maybe traditional is not necessarily correct. Or maybe it should be the traditional AT way: Everybody and everything is right; nobody and nothing is wrong. If it's true for you, that's all that matters (even if it summons all the demons of hell to drag you to your doom).

Look - settle down !

For anyone reading who isnt having a panic attack or their world collapsing ... (it will be okay LRichard ... the wont get you.)

Extract the gold ... there is usually a bit scattered around here and there.

 

[Rosanne]

Good Lord! Have I been posting in a forum for Jewish mystics?

LOL! Well how about the Forums of Received Tradition or "FORT" cause it does seem that way sometimes.
I must say having a Pope called Francis makes me think of his namesake's mystical poetry.
I do not think even he would call Kabballah 'Catholic' or even 'Chicken' for that matter.
Are you a Mystic? I am not.

The Fire-Water-Air-Earth ordering is traditional too. Maybe traditional is not necessarily correct. Or maybe it should be the traditional AT way: Everybody and everything is right; nobody and nothing is wrong. If it's true for you, that's all that matters (even if it summons all the demons of hell to drag you to your doom).

So it is like School- everyone wins? Everyone gets a pass grade?
I can tell you what was "True" for me once, was decidedly "Untrue" when I reasoned it out finally.
I am just trying a shortcut to the Fort, where I am told their are some Tarot/Kabballah adepts.
Whatever -you make me laugh, and I have forgotten how to do icons here.
~Rosanne

 

[GnosticTarotCards]

This post has been fun.

I am at a loss of words with the actual topic for Four Worlds. Yes it can be correlated to the Four everythings but thats not the original question, its four worlds not the number four and its worlds, or for that matter , my wierd ramblings about Black Adepts and solidifying the idea that we are card carrying nut cases. Contrary to popular belief I used to practice golden dawn intensively , till I was lost in the world of attributions where I totally threw the baby out with the bathwater. Tis was time for me to move on..

IT was not a good decision , sold all my Golden Dawn books even the ones by Isreal Regardie, Then learned 4 years later after heavy investigation in every possible mainstream spiritual tradition that there was a hidden and subtle philosophy behind it all

That led me to gnosticism and other forms of "heretical" mystic bafflegab. Its important to realize that the Strictly Kabbalistic notion of Four Worlds DOES come from Zohar , its not in the Razim or Bahir but the ZOHAR. Im not going to go into other stuff that will piss off my friends here ( have I any??). LIke Partzufim, Tzimtum and Atzulit , along with lots of other terms like Guf etc. That is all JEWISH Kabbalah and its taught very well by Kabbalah.info they teach in the line of Issac Luria and his tradition.

WHen I say Kabbalah im talking about the type of Hekaloth mysticism and Daniel based traditions of Mar Yeshua and those who were part of the Apostolic Succession. The Four Worlds is used as a mandala and subtle inner practice done with it. Back to the topic..

The Kabbalistic Diagram known as the Tree of Life for me is a way of memorizing information and allowing those images to reach deep into the unconcious, (Four Worlds) out of the pool of being there the images start to speak, that means they start to formulate a new outlook, it opens ones eyes and then subtle realms of understanding (initiation) are conferred. Thats all !

The Hermetic Preisthood is contemporary with Mar Yeshua and Alexandrian Mystery Systems of Hieratic Initation. The preists of that time used to have the intitiand listen to a "reading mystery" which slowly introduced core concepts and philosophic points. Then specialized studies, finally a initiation was done , similar to Tractate 6 of the Nag Hammadi. That was actually a high grade intiatic recording, where the one being initiated was being raised to the Ogdoad or invisible ranks of hierarchy, in Jewish tradition this is called Yetzeriah to Briah. Its all there, Im not going to write for hours and give a dissertation but its there. If you want to study this stuff. thats what it is. I don't think we should take particulars and turn them into generalities because it sounds good. Yes there is a fabric of all this in everything else thats why its called METAPHYSICAL .

Metaphysical - Specifically dealing with non-material , non-physical realities and postulates

In GNOSIS

Tim

 

[Richard]

......I must say having a Pope called Francis makes me think of his namesake's mystical poetry.
I do not think even he would call Kabballah 'Catholic' or even 'Chicken' for that matter.
Are you a Mystic? I am not.

I like St. Francis. I did read somewhere that he was not too conscientious about personal hygiene. Among the early Christians it was called the "holy smell" and the pagan Romans considered it antisocial.

Me a mystic? Sort of the opposite, actually.

So it is like School- everyone wins? Everyone gets a pass grade?

About the time that nonsense became fashionable, I retired from teaching. It was too goofy even for me.

Whatever -you make me laugh, and I have forgotten how to do icons here.
~Rosanne

When you are writing a post, scroll to the bottom of the page. In the menu on the left, click on Smilies.

Rosanne, you have just won the dubious honor of being on my favorite ATers list, along with gregory and jackdaw*.

 

[kwaw]

The entire Golden Dawn marginalized Eliphas Levi. Its a fact. This is something that historians have proven, and that his corespondances were bastardized into the golden dawn version of attributions.

Ophiel: If you are interested in the various esoteric/occult schools in relationship to the tarot, a good place to start is:

A wicked pack of cards by Ronald Decker, Thierry Depaulis, Michael A. E. Dummett

and

A history of the occult tarot, 1870 to 1970 by Ronald Decker, Michael A. E. Dummett

Both are reliable historical accounts, albeit a bit mocking in tone.

I am not "believing' in french masonry.. I KNOW.

Its not like im an outsider on the Western Mysteries but an actual member. My mentor who is Grandmaster of both Western Golden Dawn and European French Traditions, including Martinist etc. told me about the entire issue.

If you are referring to Christine Payne-Towler - she has written a great deal of very interesting material well worth reading (and generously, much of it freely available on the web). However, beware of reading it uncritically - I have found her historical accounts highly biased and, in areas that I know anything about at least, error ridden.

(And anyone who knows anything about or has been involved with esoteric/occult schools should know to take their own 'historical' accounts with a pinch of salt - an insider who takes such seriously may well be considered to KNOW less, rather than more.)

 

[ravenest]

History Lecture = Order's mythology.