The World/Le Monde - Contrasting the Dodal and Conver

[le pendu]

Adding three more cards to the discussion:

The Jean Noblet (circa 1650), Jacques Vieville (circa 1650) and a card from the Sforaza Castle (dating uncertain, perhaps early 1700s)

Noblet >

Vieville >

Sforza Castle >

There are lots of interesting details about these cards. One thing that stands out to me is that in all three decks the four figures in the corners are shown with complete bodies (as best as can be told). Yet, the card from the Sforza Castle is in many ways very similar to the Dodal and Chafard.

The figure in the Noblet and Vieville seems to be holding a scepter more than a "wand".

In the Vieville, the figure is very masculine, and the cape actually ties in the front around the neck.

Strangely, on the Vieville, who is known for having the images "reversed", the order of the four corners is not the same one way or the other, it is different, with the Angel and Lion on one side and the Eagle and Bull on the other.

There are more differences, but I'd love to hear everyones thoughts on these additional cards and if how you feel these variations effect, if at all, your understanding of what is being displayed on the cards.

best,
robert

 

[tmgrl2]

As for the Chafard, what is that wand-like item s/he holds in her hand pointing up!?

Looks phallic...since it's outer line is less defined than the other two.

Move toward androgynous??

Interesting comparisons....

terri

 

[Ross G Caldwell]

There are more differences, but I'd love to hear everyones thoughts on these additional cards and if how you feel these variations effect, if at all, your understanding of what is being displayed on the cards.

I never noted the halo on the Vieville figure's head before. He is also the only clearly male figure in the bunch - the bottom end of his sceptre kind of points to that too ;-)

I would interpret Vieville's as Christ. The eschatological, victorious Christ of course (although it's only Good Friday, it's not too early to be talking about it!).

I'm not quite comfortable describing the figure in the other World cards as Christ, although the animals are definitely the Evangelists.

Some commentators have claimed there are Christs with breasts around; I have yet to see them, but I would certainly like to. If they were in a Victory wreath, like the World card, it would be even better.

In general I take the World card in the French tradition to represent the BRIDE of Christ, the purified World. The Bridegroom - Christ himself - or the soul ready to receive God in the mystical tradition - always remains *implicit* in the Tarot (it is easy to interpret the Fool in this way, since he has no place in the sequence).

Except in the Vieville, where the figure can only be interpreted as the Glorious Christ.

 

[Fulgour]

Halos: Aleph Mem Shin (Waw)

...whereas the Conver seems to have lost the halo on the Bull.

Aleph ~ aligns with Aquarius (La Lune), signifying Le Bateleur
Mem ~ aligns with Scorpio (Temperance), signifying XIII
Shin ~ aligns with Leo (L'Hermite), signifying Le Monde

Waw ~ aligns with Taurus (Lamourex), signifying La Papess
It is La Papess who is the heart and soul of Le Tarot

~Fulgour
sniff sniff... my doodles are unpopular. [ ** ]

 

[le pendu]

Aleph ~ aligns with Aquarius (La Lune), signifying Le Bateleur
Mem ~ aligns with Scorpio (Temperance), signifying XIII
Shin ~ aligns with Leo (L'Hermite), signifying Le Monde

Waw ~ aligns with Taurus (Lamourex), signifying La Papess
It is La Papess who is the heart and soul of Le Tarot

~Fulgour
sniff sniff... my doodles are unpopular. [ ** ]

Hi Fulgour,

I do TRY to understand what you are talking about, but I usually fail, and get frustrated playing a deciphering game.

So... TRYING... You're saying that the Bull has no halo because it represents La Papess?

Looks more like a MISTAKE in the Conver to me.

best,
robert

 

[le pendu]

Ross,

Thanks for the WONDERFUL information on Chaffard. I would love it if you would add it to Tarotpedia. You have a lot of info in Payen as well I believe? These historical notes are precious, thanks for them.

Also, thanks for your thoughts on the card. I tend to agree about the Vieville, it seems likely to be Christ in Glory.

best,
robert

 

[Fulgour]

It's not about the pretty pictures.

You're saying that the Bull has no halo because it represents La Papess?

The Moon (La Papess) is exalted in Taurus and
None of the other Fixed signs have exaltations.

Leo Scorpio & Aquarius genuflect in reverence
to The Moon~ and to signify this we have the
3 Elements: Aleph Mem Shin. It's quite simple!

 

[le pendu]

The Moon (La Papess) is exalted in Taurus and
None of the other Fixed signs have exaltations.

Leo Scorpio & Aquarius genuflect in reverence
to The Moon~ and to signify this we have the
3 Elements: Aleph Mem Shin. It's quite simple!

It's quite simple, I suppose, if you want to lay hebrew letters on top of the cards.... but for those of us who look only to the cards rather then applying some other system on top of them, it is not so simple.. nor sensible.

best,
robert

EDITED TO ADD:
That sounded mean. I don't want to be mean. It's just that my focus tends to be on examining (Contrasting and Comparing.. hee hee) the cards. I find the similarities and differences fascinating. I have a difficult time when other systems are used to explain these similarities and differences, but I do respect your opinion. Sorry.

robert

 

[Ross G Caldwell]

Ross,

Thanks for the WONDERFUL information on Chaffard. I would love it if you would add it to Tarotpedia. You have a lot of info in Payen as well I believe? These historical notes are precious, thanks for them.

My pleasure. I live in Chaffard's home town, so it was nice to discover their part in tarot history.

I did post some long thing about the Payens a while back... I think on a thread here. If you have it, please edit it any way you like and put up at tarotpedia. If not, I'll look for it and do it.

Also, thanks for your thoughts on the card. I tend to agree about the Vieville, it seems likely to be Christ in Glory.

Regarding the World as the Bride of Christ, it would be nice to find someone identifying the Soul of the World with the Bride of Christ. It seems an easy association to make.

Since this image is not attested earlier than probably 1600, we have a larger field of literature to draw upon. I personally believe the "TdM" image evolved from the earlier kinds by some such association of ideas.

 

[Fulgour]

...but for those of us who look only to the cards rather then applying some other system on top of them, it is not so simple...

Well said & much appreciated! Here's the thing though:
Tarot without a system is like a flag without a country.

And for me the system with Tarot is the Tarot itself...
not Hebrew Kabbalah or Astrology~I look at the cards.

What'd Shakespeare be~if you did not read the plays?
Or if you saw them performed unspoken: a dumb-show
is what they called such things back in the Bard's day.