Thoth Through A Klaiedescope Lens

[Debra]

It occurred to me to see if there were family crests for either Marguarite Frieda Bloxham's family, or for her husband Percy Harris's family.

I didn't come up with anything except the interesting sidelight that Percy Harris was Jewish.

Making me wonder if Frieda was too. This enquiry has dead ended.

Ravenest, of course Crowley can ask the artist to put his family crest in the Sun card. Perhaps she didn't realize what it was. Who knows what other parts of Crowley's autobiography are embedded in the deck.

*Grimaces at involuntary thought of genitalia in Devil card*

You're right. It's typical of Crowley, insofar as he was um. Egomaniacal. Clever. Deceptive. I would say a charlatan.

 

[Rosanne]

I was greatly enjoying reading the posts of those who had a feel, interpretation, insight, varient approach and are dismayed (if I read the posts right) that there will be no more of this - first and last!

Hi Ravenest!
For me personally- I said in the beginning......

I am glad you like this approach with the Thoth- when I got the Thoth this was my only way to approach it. I feel it is an expansive view rather than a restrictive view- you can take it visually and it should lead you to the artist meaning. Mainly because we are seeing all the Artists accumulated knowledge expressed. Rejoicing in Unison! I like it!

What was the artist's meaning in putting a family crest on the Sun? What meaning would I take from that?
The original painting that was not used showed what Crowley wrote as per previous posts. A sun. Below is a wall, in front of which, in a fairy ring, two children wantonly and shamelessly embrace.

That is not a wall visually- it is a band crown visually. The Fairies baffled me- within a ring they would not. Even Grigori saw it in a physical sense of circumcision. Now Grigori said ....and I can imagine a perverse joy being obtained by using the family crest in the pursuit of something his family would have disapproved of so vehemently.

So he did not free himself with his world view from his co-dependent attachment to the past? Why should I agree with someone who constantly acts out -Do what I say- not what I do. I grew up with that sort of hypocrisy.

For me, myself alone, I am fairly PO'd with Harris for sycophancy. I actually thought her above petty ego stroking and was at pains to paint a vision.
So you and I will not agree it seems and so I leave this thread to those who wish to trot out Crowley thought- which was not the intent of the thread anyway. Consider those who have the Thoth, like I did and do and not the Crowley books and what you said......
AND a relief to encounter these teachings without the outward sniding pomposoty of many who profess occult knowledge and write those tedious books. It would seem with the Crest/Blazon the man himself held a certain pomposity. I agree he is not as tedious as Waite.

~Rosanne

 

[Debra]

Rosanne we posted simultaneously--please read mine before you go away, and I will do the same

 

[Rosanne]

Did too Debra!

 

[Grigori]

If memory serves the Visconti decks are loaded with family tributes. Seems part of the tarot tradition

I was thinking more about the two children on the Sun card, and the discussion revolving around the pulsing of the Sun's resistance against its own gravity, and the dual nature of the Heru-ra-ha (Rahoorkhuit/active and Harpocrates/passive). This is blindingly obvious in hindsight, but I've never thought of this card in connection to the Sign of the Enterer (Horus/active) and its friend the Sign of Silence (Harpocrates/passive/also The Fool with his solar genitals).

This pairing of movements is a standard part of many rituals, including and most famously the LBRP. A little bit of Sun for each performance of it

 

[Rosanne]

If memory serves the Visconti decks are loaded with family tributes. Seems part of the tarot tradition

That is a total red herring Grigori.
A wedding gift of a game in the ruling Milan family is not comparable.
Only the tax stamps would really be part of the Historic tradition in that light.\

Yes I did get that about the throbbing Sun, once I realised about the earlier card.

~Rosanne

 

[Grigori]

That is a total red herring Grigori.
A wedding gift of a game in the ruling Milan family is not comparable.
Only the tax stamps would really be part of the Historic tradition in that light.\

I don't see why they are not comparable. The Visconti's added tributes to themselves for a deck meant for their family. Crowley added tributes to himself to a deck meant for his followers. It's not true to assume that Crowley intended his deck for purchase for fortune telling purposes at the local Barnes and Noble, he didn't. As far as we know, the oldest surviving tarot tradition, is to personalize the tarot's format in your own deck with lots and lots of references to yourself for your own amusement Job well done Aleister Apparently folks read with the Visconti decks to this very day, unhindered by all the family jokes built into the images. Great stuff I reckon I don't read with it myself, but can't see why others shouldn't feel free to.

Frieda's intention in painting the deck is quite clear. To paint Crowley's vision of the tarot while receiving his training in the same. Job well done Frieda. This of course doesn't preclude using the deck in other ways, but I think if we are to start speculating on Crowley's intent based on the images, its fitting to compare our speculations what he and Frieda have actually blatantly said was their intent. I hardly see the inclusion of his family crest as a deception, he says flat out that that is what is, in the book he intended to always be sold alongside the deck, which was intended for sales and promotion to those interested in his work! How devious...

I just had a quick look at the correspondence between Crowley and Harris to see where idea for this card came from. The family crest doesn't get a mention sadly. However I think this snippet is a good one.

Quite amusing also the Sun could have the Zodiac pushed round.

3. Why are there 72 decanates--72 names of God. I can understand 36--3 houses for each zodiacal sign & anyhow am I to divide the Universe into 72 parts? You say stars of the Zodiac--are the stars to be the signs or the actual constellations?

I guess the devil is in the details eh? Laugh:

 

[ravenest]

It occurred to me to see if there were family crests for either Marguarite Frieda Bloxham's family, or for her husband Percy Harris's family.

I didn't come up with anything except the interesting sidelight that Percy Harris was Jewish.

Making me wonder if Frieda was too. This enquiry has dead ended.

Ravenest, of course Crowley can ask the artist to put his family crest in the Sun card. Perhaps she didn't realize what it was. Who knows what other parts of Crowley's autobiography are embedded in the deck.

*Grimaces at involuntary thought of genitalia in Devil card*

You're right. It's typical of Crowley, insofar as he was um. Egomaniacal. Clever. Deceptive. I would say a charlatan.

But in light of what I said above, why does that make one a charlatan?

And devil genitalia??? I thought we worked out in a previous thread that it was a double-goat-penis?

 

[ravenest]

If memory serves the Visconti decks are loaded with family tributes. Seems part of the tarot tradition

I was thinking more about the two children on the Sun card, and the discussion revolving around the pulsing of the Sun's resistance against its own gravity, and the dual nature of the Heru-ra-ha (Rahoorkhuit/active and Harpocrates/passive). This is blindingly obvious in hindsight, but I've never thought of this card in connection to the Sign of the Enterer (Horus/active) and its friend the Sign of Silence (Harpocrates/passive/also The Fool with his solar genitals).

Really? I thought they were Crowleys two children.

 

[ravenest]

I just had a quick look at the correspondence between Crowley and Harris to see where idea for this card came from. The family crest doesn't get a mention sadly. However I think this snippet is a good one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frieda in a different letter, Sept 1939
Quite amusing also the Sun could have the Zodiac pushed round.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frieda undated
3. Why are there 72 decanates--72 names of God. I can understand 36--3 houses for each zodiacal sign & anyhow am I to divide the Universe into 72 parts? You say stars of the Zodiac--are the stars to be the signs or the actual constellations?

OH! I SO WANT to hear the answer on that one!