Visually Looking for the Planets in TdM [Marseille]

[kwaw]

Having said that, however, there is possibly another way or manner in which to consider the planets within the Tarot de Marseille: not as each and everyone represented, but rather as alluded to by reference to only some.

For example, representation of the Star(s), Moon and Sun leads to astronomical/astrological reflections. One does not need to carefully depict all seven traditional planets to allude to them. Similarly, the zodiac is likewise alluded to by hinting (or even intentionally representing) Cancer on the Moon card imagery, of Gemini on the Sun, or perhaps even of either Virgo and Leo (as adjacent each other) in Strength, or Herakles and the Lion as asterism. These bring to mind not only those that are in fact depicted, but the many that are not.

If we see in the star a reference to Aquarius [and the iconographic relationship is very clear], Moon-Cancer and Sun Leo, then from Aquarius to Cancer/Leo two opposing sides of the zodiac are represented so that it may be said the sphere of the stars [or at least the zodiacal belt] is encompassed between them; also Saturn the first of the Planets rules Aquarius, Moon the Last of the Planets and the Sun is in the middle so that we may say too the planets are encompassed between them [either as beginning, end, middle or in that the signs of Saturn are opposite those of lights, all the others encompassed between them]. The numbering of the Sun and Moon too could be an astronomical / calendrical reference to the metonic or saros cyles.

Kwaw

 

[kwaw]

... thanks for the picture of the before mentioned Schon engraving.

Sorry it is not a particularly clear copy, there is a coloured in version of it on the O'Neil site here [about three quarter down the page]:

http://www.tarot.com/about-tarot/library/boneill/met-astrology

Kwaw

 

[kwaw]

If we see in the star a reference to Aquarius

 

[jmd]

Though I agree that the representation of Aquarius as part of the Star imagery is clear, and likewise for the Cancer on the Moon card, it is not at all the case, I would suggest, for the Sun and Leo - rather something different is there presented, namely, at least in the Marseille-type depictions, an as clear as for the Star-Aquarius image, the Sun and Gemini.

If there is anywhere that Leo is intended, it is not depicted on its own, but rather only with its adjacent image of Virgo (Cf, for example, the discussion 'Strength as Virgo & Leo').

If that is the case, then what we have thus far, looking directly at the imagery presented, is the following:

• XI - Strength with an 'inferred' reference to the adjacent signs Leo AND Virgo (though earlier depictions seem to be more of Herakles and the Nemian Lion;
• XVII - the Star(s) with various possible asterisms intended, and Aquarius depicted;
• XVIII - the Moon with the Moon and Cancer; and
• XVIIII - the Sun with the Sun and Gemini.

One could claim, of course, other connections via various inferred meanings, such as Jupiter or Saturn with either the Emperor or the Pope (etc), but what is clear even from the Schoen engraving is that the seven planets do not have their established iconographic representations within the deck.

To visually look for the planets within the Marseille-type decks, then, allows for diversions into possible allegorical representations to be considered, and none (except for the Sun and Moon, with possibly the other five as as part of the Star), I would suggest, that are clearcut.

 

[Rosanne]

I am not sure that I agree that the planets do not show up obviously in the TdM.
I hope it works- but Kwaw showed this image of a clay tablet sketch of a stick calendar (Roman/Egyptian) and maybe the Saturday to Friday images might be visually
V Le Pape, 111 L'Imperatrice, 11 La Papesse, 1V L'Empereur, XV Le Diable, V11 Chariot and V111 La Justice all throned cards as I mentioned earlier. Visually they seem possible. ~Rosanne

 

[kwaw]

[*]XVIIII - the Sun with the Sun and Gemini.[/list]

As depicted on the Schoen, the two figures could also represent the iconography of the 5th house of children, of which Leo is cosignificator, though Ayumi disputes the connection as anachronistic.

Connecting between Sun and Gemini seems odd too, unless given an alphabetic connection we connect them perhaps with Ra, Romulus and Remus - Sun card as Resh

Kwaw

 

[kwaw]

I am not sure that I agree that the planets do not show up obviously in the TdM.
I hope it works- but Kwaw showed this image of a clay tablet sketch of a stick calendar (Roman/Egyptian) and maybe the Saturday to Friday images might be visually
V Le Pape, 111 L'Imperatrice, 11 La Papesse, 1V L'Empereur, XV Le Diable, V11 Chariot and V111 La Justice all throned cards as I mentioned earlier. Visually they seem possible. ~Rosanne

No doubt most of you will know but just in case someone doesn't they are of course the planetary deities of the days of the week, in order left to right:

Saturn-Saturday / Apollo-Sunday / Diana-Monday / Mars-Tueday /
Mercury-Wednesday / Jupiter-Thursday / Venus-Friday

It can be found in Attilio Degrassi Inscriptions Italiae 1963, XIII, pp.308-309, plate 56

For more information it is also discussed on page here [paragraphs on 'stick calendar' about a third way down the page]:

http://www.creation-answers.com/cref.htm

 

[Melanchollic]

As depicted on the Schoen, the two figures could also represent the iconography of the 5th house of children, of which Leo is cosignificator, though Ayumi disputes the connection as anachronistic.

As a general rule, maybe. However XVIIII does have the children almost identical to Schoens'.

Connecting between Sun and Gemini seems odd too, unless given an alphabetic connection we connect them perhaps with Ra, Romulus and Remus - Sun card as Resh

Let's not forget a certain Nordic Sun God, Balder, who did indeed have a twin, Hodur.


Mel

 

[kwaw]

Let's not forget a certain Nordic Sun God, Balder, who did indeed have a twin, Hodur.
Mel

That would make the dogs/wolves of the moon card the nordic hounds Skoll and Hati, the hounds of heaven who cause eclipses?

Skoll and Hati; Skoll pursues the Sun in it's daily course, and Hati chases the Moon. They cause eclipses when the nearly catch up with their respective prey. They will seize the sun and moon at Ragnarock, and devour them, ending time in this cycle.

Kwaw

 

[Paul]

Just to throw in a related idea.

Daniel Rodes and Encarna Sanchez in their book las constelaciones, los dioses y el tarot de marsella present the idea that the TdM images are a Star Map. This helped explain the Virgo~Leo constellation proximity as illustrated in one card, La Force, because these constellations are next to each other on a star map. Under this system, constellations may weave together on one card or more, which is why we won't see a one-card-per-zodiac sign correspondence (and of course the zodiac signs are not exactly the constellations, right?). Moreover, in this case, the planets, per se, are not the point, but the constellations. Le Pendu is Hercules, for example. There may be something to why the dogs (Canis Major and Minor?) are seen barking in proximity to the Cancer Crab on La Lune, as well-- can't remember now that I'm typing this at work and would have to look at a star map.

I at one time experimented with using a constellation map on my computer and then computer pasting the cards over it-- it was a sky-full of tarot cards! I believe the authors only use Ptolemy's original 48? constellations rather than all of the modern discoveries, under the idea that anymore than the 48 would be anachronistic-- if the designers of the tarot intended such a star map, they would use what was known then, not now.

Presumably, then, the meaning of the constellations would inform the meaning of the card.

Goodness -- just realized that this could be a thread in and of itself!

http://www.comfychair.org/~cmbell/myth/myth.html