Visually Looking for the Planets in TdM [Marseille]

[Ayumi]

Here is a link to an essay about the Tarot as Star Maps:

http://www.aquarian-age.net/tarot/tarotalpha9.htm

Let's not forget a certain Nordic Sun God, Balder, who did indeed have a twin, Hodur.

Traditional solar religions have the Sun having two sons, the summer sun and the winter sun.

Ayumi

 

[Rosanne]

It is all very interesting these images neh? I remember when I first thought that Le Fou was Bootes and was the Star Arturus- and Bootes was a herdsman of Cattle. It went someway toward Le Fou being Aleph in the Hebrew abjab. I discounted it- I have re considered it of late. ~Rosanne

 

[kwaw]

Twenty Two Stars

In his Confessio Amantis John Gower (1330-1408) wrote in verse how Nectanabus was an astronomer and great magician who taught Alexander the properties of the stars:

Among the whiche forth withal
Nectanabus in special,
Which was an Astronomien
And ek a gret Magicien,
And undertake hath thilke emprise
To Alisandre in his aprise
As of Magique naturel
To knowe, enformeth him somdel
Of certein sterres what thei mene;
Of whiche, he seith, ther ben fiftene,
…

And tuo and twenty, to the syhte
Whiche aren of hemself so bryhte,
That men mai dieme what thei be,
The nature and the proprete.

The 22 stars 'bryhte to the syhte' are the 15 fixed as taught by Nectanabus to Alexander [which Gower names as Aldeboran, Clota or the Pliades, Algol, Alhaiot, Canis Major, Canis Minor, Arial, Ala Corvi, Alaezel, Almareth, Venenas, Alpheta, Cor Scorpionis, Botercadent, Tail of Scorpio] and 7 wandering [ie, the seven traditional planets].

Of hem that this science write,
On of the ferste which it wrot
After Noah, it was Nenbrot
To his disciple Ychonithon
And made a bok forth therupon
The which Megaster cleped was.

See thread here:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=79529

Kwaw

 

[Rosanne]

That is great Kwaw! (How I miss these threads is beyond me) If you look at Bootes The bright star Arcturus form the base of a cross -Tau? The Two and Twenty bit is quite amazing. So is the story of the Tower. ~Rosanne

 

[kwaw]

Gower's fifteen stars with their associated herbs and stones is from Liber hermetis de XV stellis et de XV lapidibus et de XV herbis that was attributed to the Nectanabus by some, and were considered of particular importance in natural magic. Agrippa calls them the Behenian stars:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behenian_fixed_stars

http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/hermesfixedstars.html

Some names are different, scholars have identified Arial with Cor Leonis [interesting that in Hebrew lion=Ari, Ari-al = divine (or celestial?) lion]; Botercadent with Vultur Cadens or Vega [though some associate it with the whales belly].

Kwaw

 

[Melanchollic]

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[venicebard]

I have found that 6 Cards are definitively on thrones
11, 111, 1V, V, V11, V11
Moon, Venus, Mars, Mercury, Saturn, Jupiter and the Sun

I presume you mean 2-3-4-5-7-8, to which I would add 10, since the creature on top would appear to be (temporarily) enthroned. It is interesting that the numbers skipped, 1-6-9, form the central axis of the Tree in Yetzirah (form world), and that the remaining Sefirah of that axis, 10, is unique in having an enthroned non-human figure. Taking 2 as the sun (the sun's proper station, since as the great year it is the relation between 6-year-ecliptic and 10-day-equator) and 10 as the moon -- both by proximity to 9 and I believe by a certain strand of early Kabbalistic tradition as well -- yields:

2-Papess-sun,
3-Empress-Saturn,
4-Emperor-Jupiter,
5-Pope-Mars,
7-Chariot-Venus,
8-Justice-Mercury,
10-Fortune-moon.

Now it is the sun, of course, that the cloistered figure in the Papess is removed from, this being the poorest fit of the seven, perhaps, yet I do not find it as disturbing as most would, since I take 2-Papess as E-aspen-heh the air breath. But as scorpio of the Egg, it does not quite cut it as the sun in my book either.

An alternative would be to make 2-Papess, as Chokmah-wisdom or Sophia, the moon and demote the sun to its lowest station, the day (10).

Robert would evidently agree with 4-Emperor-Jupiter, and the later Troubadours would certainly agree with 5-Pope-Mars (based on the Albigensian 'Crusade'). As for 7-Chariot-Venus, this seems a bit strange, yet since virtually all planetary spirits have their chariots (Thor's drawn by goat, Frey's by boar, etc.), perhaps Venus's distinction is that she is the chariot rather than herself driving one, or something. Certainly there is evidence of the feminine principle presiding over the poetic mysteries (e.g. Bridgit, Keridwen, etc.), which this trump symbolizes, being both the Merkabah (with KRShNA as charioteer?) and the 'chair' of the poet (the latter based on its tree, rune, early Hebrew, and square-Hebrew form).

Such analysis is interesting and perhaps meaningful. Indeed it is interesting to note this pattern 2-3-4-5-7-8-10, and the falsely enthroned (hence standing) Devil being projected out another 5 from this highlights his proximity to the very next trump, XVI, which is essentially a dethroning (or at least a making shaky thereof).

2 cards that have no Humans on them La Lune/Moon and La Roue/WOF (Solar and Lunar Calendars?)

I take issue with this: do you not see the face in the moon, taking refuge there (from the hounds)?

7 Cards that are single figures 0, 1, 1X, X1, X11, X1V, XV11

? Oh, you mean in addition to the throned figures, sorry.

5 Cards with multiple figures V1, XV, XV1, XX, X1X and maybe XX1 although La Monde is more like a single figure.

LeMonde capping everything off shows that the entire sequence is based on Ezekiel's vision (Eze. 1.1), which is where the four 'Living Creatures' are invoked to show that all four of the wheels of said vision are zodiacs (that is, have a bull taurus, a lion leo, an eagle scorpio, and a human aquarius). Of course the "porthole of a commuter jet" Italian version of this trump has but a single figure, as I recall.

2 Cards that tradition has unnumbered Le Fou 0 and La Mort X111 although they are single figures.

(You mean, of course, one unnumbered and one unnamed.)

So astrologically or astronomically what does this tell me?
0, 1, X111, XX1 are the elements?
V1, XV1, XX, X1X are the equinoxs and solstices ?Spring X1, Summer X1X, Fall XV1, Winter XX

I don't get your elements: visually, would not fire be XVI, air VII (wind in one's face) or XX (cloud or smoke of battle), water XVIII, and earth (as you say) XXI? [Edited to add:] Oh, and interesting you place XVIIII LeSol at summer solstice, considering I (and bardic tradition, if I am correct) places yod-Ii-mistletoe-XVIIII LeSoleil (Golden Bough) at winter solstice, since it represents (again, if I be correct) the handing-off of rulership from waning year to waxing. The 'handing-off' from waxing to waning takes on a different character altogether, since the waxing year does not 'hand off' things while yet living but rather is sacrificed at the solstice, or else slain by the tanist (waning year), who then takes over.

add in the calendar cards X and XV111(who turn the seasons)

. . . to which I would add II LaPapesse, who reads it, since this would comprise all three inert gases (2-10-18).

Now that I have addled your brains- who is XV Le Diable? The Planet Sun? Is he on a throne Standing or is he Zodiac/Month?
Any thoughts? ~Rosanne

As nocturnal spirit be he Saturn or lead (or the satyrs after which Saturday is named?), as Gnostic demiurge the sun perhaps or Saturn again (as highest of the Archons?): interesting question, and do not mistake him for Mars simply because war is distasteful, as Mars represents the discipline and courage whereby we may surmount the crisis of conflict (that is, avoid extinction). Or perhaps the worldliness of Venus in male guise? I'm stumped, unless he be all planetary spirits when given rulership (rather than serving 'under heaven'). Just speculating aloud.

 

[OnePotato]

Hello Rosanne.

There are a number of books that discuss the various different groupings of stars into constellations by various cultures throughout history. Things have changed greatly over time, and I suspect this is reflected in the imagery of the TdM.

I don't believe the various familiar bits of the zodiac are there by accident.
I don't believe the vaguely familiar bits of the seven planets are a coincidence either.

I have addressed this, and some other related things, in my own deck, done so long ago. After a bit of a break, I've gone back to work on the minors, and I'll be happy to discuss it with you further when I finish.

 

[kwaw]

The horoscope engraved by Erhard Schoen...

Quote:
SCHOEN, ERHARD, a German engraver on wood, who flourished about the year 1530, and was probably of the same family with the preceding artists. (note: As of Martin Schoen, who according to Samuel Singer in his 'History of Playing Cards' produced a 5x14 circular deck of cards in the 15th century - end note, kwaw). His cuts are said to be executed with neatness and accuracy. Mr. Strutt mentions a frontispiece by him, representing a genealogical branch from Jesse to Christ, with figures of the principal personages, very delicately cut. He marked his prints with a monogram composed of an E. and an S. with a small knife under, thus, [Erhard Schön flourished from 1516 to 1550, as appears by the work entitled " Hortulus Animée," and other books published during that period, for which he furnished the designs. Among the thirty-three wood-cuts attributed to him by Bartsch, there is one with his mark and the date Í524. He resided chiefly at Nuremberg, where he published, in 1538, a treatise on the proportions of the human figure for the use of students. This work must have been useful and popular, as it went through three editions in five years, though the wood-cuts illustrative of the author's principles are coarsely done, and apparently not calculated to facilitate the improvement of a learner. Jackson, in his treatise on wood engraving, asserts that Erhard Schoen, like many others of the sixteenth century called wood engravers, only made the designs of those prints that have his mark, and never engraved. Zani is nearly of the same opinion ; he says it has not been proved. Jackson mentions some playing cards designed by this master, as being in greater request than any of his other works engraved on wood; but they are not alluded to by Bartsch or Nagler. It is supposed that he died about 1550, as there is nothing at present known that can be attributed to him after that year.]

End quote from Dictionary of Painters and Engravers (1849) by Michael Bryan.

Kwaw

 

[Rosanne]

I posted this elsewhere, but I guess I could put it here as well.

I am declaring finally where I stand, although it is most likely obvious to those who have read my posts in history forums.
Interpretations of Tarot, World Myths and Legends reveal a sophisticated Science of The Stars. Our concepts of our place in this Universe, our view of God/s, where we came from are reflected in that wondering. The Major Arcanum of 22 cards is a Star Map and engendered the same belief thousands of years ago- "What is above, is as what is below" This realisation was echoed in philosopical thought and universally. We had Fathers and Mothers so the sky must have too. Father Sun and Mother Moon etc etc. Where do we go after Death ? Finally for some this was answered by the arrival of Jesus and heralded by a star. For many millions it was answered by Buddha.
Plato and the Indian Black Elk believed exactly the same things. Pythagoras and the Mayan would have been able to communicate. Spiritually The New Zealand Maori seems to have had Tarot. Well of course they did not- but you would think they might have had Tarot. Thats why Levi thought the Egyptians had Tarot and Crowley too. It is why it looks Kabbalistic or Neo platonic. In the Bible God speaks to Job as a whirlwind...
"Where is the way to the dwelling of Light, and where is the place of Darkness that you may take to its territory or that you may see the paths to its home? You know, for you were born then."

With the help of many and some in particular I think that the Medieval times was Christian in Europe and the mindset gave us these images in particular- that explained a Cosmic tree/God in his heavens/ us below reflecting that. I am not exactly sure of the order of who was where in the Arcanum, but like the times it was a hodge podge of Pagan/Neo-plantonic/Christian/anti church/almanac/Book of Hours/Mystery play etc etc- but you can a bet a dollar to a pound it was understood as a star map of a particular sort, by Mr Everyman. ~Rosanne