Wirth-influenced decks

[Teheuti]

Mary, here are two more Wirth-inspired decks. They're by no means clones, but have definite Wirth touches.

Grimpeur Tarot from Japan. Click on the two card images for larger views.

Thanks, Lee.

I'm not sure what makes the Grimpeur a Wirth-style deck? No crocodile, no flower on the Magician, the Wheel of Fortune is totally Marseille. I can't see the other cards, but everything that's shown can be found on a Marseille-style deck (except the Waite-style Fool). I think. Please, prove me wrong!

The Beginner's Tarot looks like more of a possibility—although not actually trying to integrate Wirth's occult elements - but picking up on Wirth-style people, especially clothes, faces and stance. Anyone know this deck?

 

[Lee]

The Grimpeur cards aren't Wirth-like because of specific symbols, but rather because of the overall visual composition. Most of the Majors have their figures in the same positions as on the Wirth cards. It's obvious that the artist was looking at the Wirth cards when he drew them. I'm attaching four cards to demonstrate. Look at the style, not the substance.

 

[Teheuti]

The Grimpeur cards aren't Wirth-like because of specific symbols, but rather because of the overall visual composition. Most of the Majors have their figures in the same positions as on the Wirth cards. It's obvious that the artist was looking at the Wirth cards when he drew them. I'm attaching four cards to demonstrate. Look at the style, not the substance.

I don't get where you are seeing the Wirth influences, other than those that are first of all, pure Marseille. Compare the Grimpeur Emperor with the Conver Marseille and the 1889 Emperor. What Wirth characteristics are there that aren't in the Marseille? The only one I see is that the Grimpeur throne is gray and more stone-like than the Marseille one.

 

[Lee]

In the Grimpeur Lovers, the rays of the sun or shorter and fatter than in the Conver, more similar to the Wirth. The angel is thin in the Grimpeur and the Wirth, chubby in the Conver. The overall composition -- sun higher in the sky, angel almost completely contained within the circle of the sun -- is closer to Wirth than to Conver.

In the Grimpeur Star, her hair is straight and she gazes downward with her eyes lowered, like the Wirth. In the Conver her hair is thick and wavy and she looks ahead, so we can see her eyes.

In the Grimpeur Wheel, the wheel is mounted on a central board, like the Wirth. On the Conver, it's mounted on two boards, one on each side. Also the descending creature on the Grimpeur and Wirth (although different creatures) are wound sinuously around the wheel, which is not evident on the Conver.

However, I will concede that similarities are not earth-shaking.

 

[Teheuti]

In the Grimpeur Lovers, the rays of the sun or shorter and fatter than in the Conver. . . . etc.

This made me think about what I consider Wirth-influenced. Personally, I think you'll find that most of the Wirthesque things you mention can be found in one of the other non-occult, continental tarots. I'm not interested enough to go through my collection and see if I can find them.

My interest is more in looking for who created decks incorporating Wirth/Lévi elements in order to make their decks accord more with the occult sentiments of Wirth/Lévi, or at least give a nod to them. Wirth's stated intent was to make occult elements of the "medieval" tarot more overt. In actuality, he added things that expressed the occult vision of Eliphas Lévi, Stanislas de Guaita and himself.

In thinking this over I might even remove one or two of the "hints of Wirth" decks from the list since they may be less Wirth-inspired than I thought. Hummmm.

What do others think of as essential to making a deck Wirth-inspired?

 

[Teheuti]

In the Grimpeur Wheel, the wheel is mounted on a central board, like the Wirth. On the Conver, it's mounted on two boards, one on each side. Also the descending creature on the Grimpeur and Wirth (although different creatures) are wound sinuously around the wheel, which is not evident on the Conver.

Seems more like a combination of Eliphas Lévi with Waite's serpent and dog. Waite also has the sword over the shoulder rather than straight up. No need for Wirth to have been in the mix.

 

[shaveling]

The Beginner's Tarot looks like more of a possibility—although not actually trying to integrate Wirth's occult elements - but picking up on Wirth-style people, especially clothes, faces and stance. Anyone know this deck?

I know the deck. And I definitely see a lot of the trumps as taken from Wirth. Those would include Le Bateleur, The Lover, Justice, The Wheel of Fortune, Strength, Temperance, The Sun, Judgement, and the World. I'd certainly list this deck as Wirth-influenced or Wirth-inspired. But if I were just describing The Beginner's Tarot apart from this thread, I'd say that Wirth's deck was one of the decks that this one copies.

What do others think of as essential to making a deck Wirth-inspired?

I'm going by the artwork here. In fact, the first thing I think when I hear a reference to Wirth's influence is "Does it have a crocodile?" But I'm thinking of the picture. I don't know Wirth's explanation of the Tarot. This thread inspired me to order Tarot of the Magicians. Naturally I did that before the post saying there was a new edition coming out. But I expect I'll want that one too.

 

[Lee]

Seems more like a combination of Eliphas Lévi with Waite's serpent and dog. Waite also has the sword over the shoulder rather than straight up. No need for Wirth to have been in the mix.

Mary, you started this thread by asking "What decks would you consider to have been influenced by the Oswald Wirth designs? " You then included a category on your list of "Touches of Wirth." I felt that the two decks I mentioned showed visual evidence that the artists had consulted Wirth's deck, so I thought you might be interested in being made aware of them. You then asked me (in so many words) to explain why I thought so, and I have. There's not much more I can say about it. It is of course up to you what criteria you use to choose which items to put on your list. You seem to be inclined to argue about it, but arguing's not really my thing these days, so I'll bow out at this point. I did offer my suggestions in a spirit of helpfulness and friendliness, sorry if that didn't come across.

 

[Lee]

The Beginner's Tarot looks like more of a possibility—although not actually trying to integrate Wirth's occult elements - but picking up on Wirth-style people, especially clothes, faces and stance. Anyone know this deck?

Do I count as anyone? You can read my review here.

 

[Teheuti]

It is of course up to you what criteria you use to choose which items to put on your list. You seem to be inclined to argue about it, but arguing's not really my thing these days, so I'll bow out at this point.

I apologize. I was doing with you precisely what I do with myself when I debate if I should include a deck. I'm not treating you any differently than I treat myself. I compare and contrast various elements and then ask how my criterion should change if a particular deck challenges my assumptions. I don't consider this argumentative, but rather it is a process of refining both my observations and correcting my assumptions. I've been doing a lot of that as I've been going through almost 30 decks laid out on my table, including Lévi images, the Falconnier-Wegener deck, the Papus-Goulinat deck, the RWS and several Marseille-style decks.

For instance, I hadn't realized how close Wirth stuck to the Marseille decks until I started closely comparing them. Certain elements that I assumed were Wirth were there in the Marseille all along. Likewise, I've found that a couple of decks draw heavily from Eliphas Lévi's images and/or Paul Christian's descriptions, but otherwise don't have any Wirth elements. So, I have to come to the conclusion that those decks were influenced by Lévi and/or Christian but not Wirth.

I don't see it as being argumentative, but about trying to get at what is really going on and clarifying what is and is not particular to Wirth in the process. Is there something wrong with that? It does require careful comparisons and refinement of criterion.

When I don't have a deck to look at directly, I have to rely on others.

I apologize about the Beginner's Deck. As I already said, it looks like it could be partly Wirth-influenced: Strength has a Wirth-like collar on her cape; the Fool is totally different. I'll include it because of the collar. Unless I discover otherwise, it seems to be a Wirth-initiated influence.