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With regards to sports, Mars gives strength and firmness of body, while Mercury confers flexibility and cunningness needed to win sports games.



In general, when Saturn is with Mars, the coolness of Saturn tempers the heat of Mars, leading to some kind of equilibrium, Maternus says:

Quote:
4. When Mars and Saturn are in conjunction and in favorable houses, they produce a balanced character and soften aggression with milder traits.
5. The association with Saturn reduces the unthinking rashness and impatient ardor of Mars and blunts it with Saturn's cold sluggishness. Thus when Mars' heat warms Saturn's chill, and the cold of Saturn tones down the fires of Mars, from this combination of temperaments a sober, well-balanced human being is produced.

[Mathesis, Bram translation, Liber Sextus, XXII]

But note that not all forms of balance is beneficial. Remember that Mars and Saturn are also natural malefics, so that, when one is of the sect, the one contrary of sect is assigned to produce misfortunes.

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6. Nevertheless activities are impeded by this combination, for one planet drives ahead while the other hinders. Those who have Saturn and Mars in this combination never attain what they want. They also suffer various illnesses, their bodies are fatigued and they suffer from black bile...
8. All these predictions are stronger if Mars and Saturn are on any of the angles.

[Mathesis, Bram translation, Liber Sextus, XXII]
The phase of the Moon is also important in this inquiry. Is it waxing, full or waning?



Barkey, am I right in saying that you are the first child or first son?
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Originally Posted by Larxene View Post
With regards to sports, Mars gives strength and firmness of body, while Mercury confers flexibility and cunningness needed to win sports games........In general, when Saturn is with Mars, the coolness of Saturn tempers the heat of Mars, leading to some kind of equilibrium
Good point. The Hot/Cold thing is very Ptolemy but of course it got passed into Medieval and Seventeenth Century Astrology and via them to the Modern era. It's something I make a lot of use of in horary.

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Originally Posted by Larxene

But note that not all forms of balance is beneficial. Remember that Mars and Saturn are also natural malefics, so that, when one is of the sect, the one contrary of sect is assigned to produce misfortunes.
And in this case Saturn is the out of sect Malefic. That's one of the factors leading me to see the 'sports thing' as more palliative than cure.

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Originally Posted by larxene

The phase of the Moon is also important in this inquiry. Is it waxing, full or waning?
The Moon is waxing and indeed is approaching full Moon (Moon in Leo, Sun in Pisces)
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The participation of Mercury but in combo with Venus in particular activities related to the body but also to the arts is a fact in a few charts I've investigated. In particular the mutual rteception Mercury/Venus. I know it because I have this placement and I checked charts of other people in this athletic but also artistic field. I found at the time relations Mercury/Venus were common. It makes sense as it requires fast feet. Mars would need to add strength and vigor though and ideally Saturn - patience and discipline.
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No, I believe that the doctrine of hot and cold planets predates Ptolemy. However, unlike Ptolemy, the ancients did not consider planets other than the Sun, Mars, Saturn and perhaps the Moon to have these qualities. That is, Jupiter, Venus and Mercury were never considered hot or cold.

Besides, those who do not follow Ptolemy considered Saturn to be a planet of coldness and moisture, not cold and dry. You will see this in Maternus's delineations of Saturn-related illnesses, and in Valens's chapter on the nature of the planets. I've always found it odd that Saturn was associated with moisture-like illnesses like dropsies (which the Moon also causes) and how he was associated with deaths and injuries around water. But that's because I was looking at it from Ptolemy's rational framework.

If you also consider the Thesaurus of Antiochus to be reflective of Hellenistic tradition, here is what he says about Saturn:

Quote:
Kronos is said to rule over temporal matters, fluidity and cooling. [Book 2, Chapter 8]
Quite the contrary to Ptolemaic principles!

[Dryness was probably assumed to be caused by hot planets. Very little mention of dry sickness.]



In Barkey's case, he is impeded by both the Moon and Saturn. The waxing Moon is inimical to the nocturnal planets. Furthermore, the aspect is opposition. The Moon translates Saturn's light to Mars. Since Saturn is in the 4th and is domicile ruler of the 4th, I take this to mean that Mars (representing Barkey) is having his autonomy and actions limited and restricted by his parents. Moon and Saturn being the natural signficators of the parents further reinforces this, as both Moon and Saturn co-operates to conspire against Mars!

A person who has Ascendant in the sign of Mars and Mars being angular is more often than not inclined to physical activities, so it is understandable that Barkey is fascinated by war and nazism, as well as body-building and sports.

Minderwiz, perhaps you should move on to Step 4, timing techniques. Profections will of course be very useful for seeking advice for this year, but perhaps circumambulation or primary directions will show the main theme of his life in this period of life. Since Barkey is interested in sports and body-related activities, maybe the Zodiacal Releasing of Fortune, Ascendant or Moon will be insightful.
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Minderwiz,


Have you ever thought about how the Schmidtian keywords fit with the significations of each planet?

For example, Mercury is "to contest and destabilise". One of Mercury's significations is "learning". How do we learn about truth if we keep contesting and destabilising the claims we are given in any field? No doubt questioning what we learn is necessary, but I think it is rather insufficient to simply question.

Another example, Jupiter is "to command and stabilise". What significations of Jupiter is associated with stability?

Also, it is not totally clear the difference between Mars's and Saturn's keywords. Both planets often cause separation.
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Originally Posted by Larxene View Post
For example, Mercury is "to contest and destabilise". One of Mercury's significations is "learning". How do we learn about truth if we keep contesting and destabilising the claims we are given in any field? No doubt questioning what we learn is necessary, but I think it is rather insufficient to simply question.

Another example, Jupiter is "to command and stabilise". What significations of Jupiter is associated with stability?

Also, it is not totally clear the difference between Mars's and Saturn's keywords. Both planets often cause separation.
Schmidt claims that these 'keywords' or principles are derived from his careful analysis of the texts. I'm not a Greek scholar, so I can't be definitive here. I can only go on the English translations. You're assuming that everything that Mercury does involves both 'contesting' and 'destabilising', You're also assuming that there is an objective truth that can be determined. Even if one takes a Platonic view of the matter, and accepts that there is a 'truth' out there, finding it might still involve a process involving at least one and possibly both of the terms. The whole 'Socratic method is based on challenging and contesting - virtually all of Plato's dialogues involve a contest of ideas. There's Socrates' view that he started from the fact that he knew one thing for certain, his own ignorance. From that comes a process of challenge, contest and indeed an attempt to destabilise his opponent's ideas. He was, after all. put to death for corrupting the youth - i.e. 'destabilising'.

The idea of Jupiter and expansion and growth is a fairly new one born out of modern ideas of 'progress'. For a Greek, expansion and growth could be dangerous things, a sign of instability. A baby did indeed expand and grow into an adult but at that point growth stopped, the baby had realised it's destiny, to be an adult man or woman. That process could be seen for a plant, or tree or an animal, or even the construction of a thing, such as a building or table. There was an 'inherent 'blueprint' which when achieved signified completion of the process. Thereafter the need is to maintain the finished product, be that man or table. If the adult human is not maintained in a stable state then the prospect is death.

Valens says (of Jupiter):

'.....Jupiter is associated with leadership abilities, citizenship, the feeling of being glorious, and the desire that might lead someone to stand before a body of individuals in any kind of holy place. Jupiter brings the ability to maintain an internal state of middle ground in the midst of judgement, faith and trust

He goes on to link Jupiter to feelings of belonging and fellowship. The pursuit of the finer things in life and to the idea of freedom and property ownership.

This seems to fit in with Schmidt's keywords.

Mercury and Jupiter rule opposing signs. The issue really comes down to does that mean there are two opposite poles and no continuum in between? Life might involve both the need to destablise at some times and to maintain at others (though remember 'maintain' here relates to a 'healthy' or 'proper' state).

Saturn and Mars are not opposites as Mercury and Jupiter are. There are differences one can separate oneself from an annoying neighbour by building a fence or a wall. Or one can go next door and stab him or her to death. The former is a Saturn action, the latter is a Mars action. There's no difficulty in recognising the difference. Mars involves decisive and indeed incisive action usually involving cutting or severing. Saturn is less decisive (much of the time) and involves building defences, obstacles, barriers or withdrawing into your home or self. The Maginot Line is Saturn at war. The Panzer division is Mars at war.

Saturn also signifies the 'confirmed bachelor' or 'maiden aunt' types.

Remember that over two thousand years there will be additions and subtle shifts in meanings but even Lilly makes no reference to Jupiter as being connected with expansion and growth. It depends what the culture sees as beneficial and Jupiter is a benefic.
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Firstly, I was under the impression that the keywords describe the whole "essence" of the planet. If that is the case, then yes, EVERYTHING should be described by the keywords. But the way you expressed your opinion seems to imply that these keywords only describe a substantial part of the essence of a planet, as seen from the eyes of Schmidt. In that case, then perhaps, there are other aspects of Mercury that are not explained by these keywords.

So in your opinion, are there things that Mercury does that are not described by these principles?


About truth. Well, I wasn't thinking about philosophy and those things that are highly dependent on human opinions. I was thinking about...things that are more practical and sensory in nature. Things like counting or arithmetics, algebra, things like "when was World War I", "is the murder weapon, and why", "the sun rises in the East and sets in the West, true or false", "is this procedure correct or not?"

Perhaps a better word would be the learning of facts and conventions. Are these things not the domain of Mercury?

This goes back to your implication that the keywords may not describe everything that Mercury does.



I think Socrates wasn't saying that there is no such thing as truth, just opinions. I think he was saying that, the more he learns, the more he realises that there is so much that he did not learn before. Of course, since he's dead, I do not want to put words in his mouth.



It is interesting that you assumed that when I said "significations of Jupiter", I was talking about "growth and expansion". Actually, that was not my understanding of Jupiter. To me, Jupiter is indeed about persons in command, those who are moderate in nature. Additionally, Jupiter signifies money and property.

However, your elaboration makes the essence of Jupiter clear to me now, thanks!

Often, one doesn't simply get rich by working in a high paying job. If one makes a lot of money, but spents equally as much of it that he spends, he would not have much in terms of long-term savings. Moderate spending is what makes a person rich. There is a similar logic with property. Wise management and/or investment of property allows one to keep one's property for a very long time.



I'll admit, I was being a bit sneaky with my question about the malefics. I deliberately avoid elaborating on my understanding, in order to prevent confirmation bias on my part. It turns out that we have a similar understanding of the difference. Thanks to you, my understanding has become clearer.

So Mars is about quick and sudden, forceful destruction, whereas Saturn is about slow and gradual deterioration. If we speak in game terms, Mars is more offensive, while Saturn is more defensive.

In football for example, of the many strategies, there are two opposing ones. The first strategy is a team that is oriented around scoring as many goals as possible, and hopefully more than the opponent. The second strategy is where the team tries to score the first goal, and then maintain its defences so that the opponent cannot score.

The first strategy is more like Mars, the second one is more like Saturn.
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Originally Posted by Larxene View Post
Firstly, I was under the impression that the keywords describe the whole "essence" of the planet. If that is the case, then yes, EVERYTHING should be described by the keywords. But the way you expressed your opinion seems to imply that these keywords only describe a substantial part of the essence of a planet, as seen from the eyes of Schmidt. In that case, then perhaps, there are other aspects of Mercury that are not explained by these keywords.

So in your opinion, are there things that Mercury does that are not described by these principles?
Keywords are never the whole story, in anything. I'll try and find the actual quote from Schmidt, but as it's in a video lecture that might take some time. However, my understanding of the situation is that the 'keywords' or 'essences' are not combined. Using the Jupiter/Mercury pairing. The keywords used are as follows:

Jupiter (Pisces) - Stabilise: Mercury (Virgo) Destabilise

Jupiter (Saggitarius) - Confirm: Mercury (Gemini) - Contest

So there is a nuance in the use of the opposites. Clearly there is a linkage. In stabilising a situation you tend to confirm it. In contesting you begin to destabilise or at least 'rock the boat'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larxene
About truth. Well, I wasn't thinking about philosophy and those things that are highly dependent on human opinions. I was thinking about...things that are more practical and sensory in nature. Things like counting or arithmetics, algebra, things like "when was World War I", "is the murder weapon, and why", "the sun rises in the East and sets in the West, true or false", "is this procedure correct or not?"

Perhaps a better word would be the learning of facts and conventions. Are these things not the domain of Mercury?

This goes back to your implication that the keywords may not describe everything that Mercury does.

I think Socrates wasn't saying that there is no such thing as truth, just opinions. I think he was saying that, the more he learns, the more he realises that there is so much that he did not learn before. Of course, since he's dead, I do not want to put words in his mouth.
It's always difficult to know where Socrates leaves off and Plato begins, as virtually all we know of Socrates teaching is via Plato. However I did not say that Socrates view was that everything is a matter of opinion. Socrates (or more correctly Plato) was a reaction to the views of the Sophists who did argue that human society was a matter of convention rather than a natural state. It is their views that are contested in the dialogues.

Plato's argument was that truth exists within us in the form of 'ideals' or 'forms' which we can all recognise and agree on. This involves challenging existing notions and reaching within ourselves to pull out knowledge. If I remember correctly, in the dialogue 'Meno', Plato does show that even a slave can recognise truths that are agreed (though these are geometrical in nature).

Now you associate Mercury with learning and convention and say that neither of those is covered by destabilising or by contesting. Conventions are social norms, and they differ from state to state or region to region, or indeed city to city. Conventions change and indeed are often seen as a valuable vehicle for aiding societies to adapt to new circumstances. In a real sense they are a vehicle for destabilisation (but not for chaos) a loosening of stability in order to reform and then restabilise. Too much stability can be a bad thing. The process of learning involves contests: It involves making decisions, evaluation, thinking along different lines, analysing, criticising, comparing, contrasting, discussing and constructing arguments. Indeed many of the words I have used there are used in examination questions up to the highest level and are processes that occur throughout the educational world.

So in both of these I can see the keywords manifesting into actions.
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Hello again Minderwiz,

If we read Paulus Alexandrinus's text, we find that he considers heliacal risings (both morning and evening) to be a strengthening factor for the planets, but he believes heliacal settings to be a weakening factor. What does your practice tell you about this matter?
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Hello again Minderwiz,

If we read Paulus Alexandrinus's text, we find that he considers heliacal risings (both morning and evening) to be a strengthening factor for the planets, but he believes heliacal settings to be a weakening factor. What does your practice tell you about this matter?
To me that makes a lot of sense, certainly it is the way that future Astrologers looked at entering and exiting the'beams'. I'm not entirely sure of the original view, as Paulus is towards the end of the period. Schmidt seems to treat both helical rising and setting as being especially significant for the planets. However I'm not sure that Schmidt's system is as certain as he seems (or at least seemed) to think.

I've always found that helical setting is associated with weakness - though I've been revisiting that of late, in the light of the claims of the benefits of being in one's own chariot.
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