Camoin Method & Laws

[Paul]

I've gone through the Camoin trumps to see how many symbols/patterns I could find which occur on more than one card.

This is very helpful, Lee.

When I first started with the method, I begged for a Camoin-lexicon of images. For example, what does the lion mean, how about the crowns? I wanted a dictionary!

My teachers reminded me that these icons may change meaning depending on the context of the question. Perhaps a lion is a lion, if the question is on going to Africa; perhaps the lion is a symbol of strength if the context is about assertion; perhaps the lion standing-->moving to-->resting is an analogy for something else.

But, there are some general ideas that Camoin has about these symbols, which I will leave to him to elucidate in his book. Fear not, they often have similarities to what I think one would find in a dream dictionary-- which is not to disparage them, but just indicate that they have a logic to their meanings.

 

[Lee]

I'm not sure how I'd feel about having a lexicon. It sounds a bit too much like reading-by-the-numbers. I suppose I'd want to see it just to get some new takes on symbols that I hadn't ever considered, but I don't think I'd want to do readings by consulting a lexicon.

I'm unclear, is there an actual book by Camoin on all of this in French? Are there definitive plans for a book in English?

 

[MareSaturni]

Anyway, here's my list so far, anyone please let me know what ones I've missed.

Rod (i.e. wand, sceptre, stick, etc.)
Hat
Blade (non-sword)
Sword
Shield
Eagle
Wooded structure
Chair/throne
Egg
Necklace
Crown
3 figures, 1 larger and 2 smaller
4 figures, 1 higher and 3 lower
Winged human
Lion
Halo
Brick structure
Water
Rope

I saw some other things, hope you don't mind me adding
Oh, i'm looking in my Fournier TdM, so it might look different from other TdMs...

Sun rays (Lune, Amoureux, Soileil, Jugement)
Lemniscata
Flowers
Plants/Leaves
Curtains
Columns
Birds


I've noticed something (at least in the two TdMs i own - Universal and Fournier) - in La Lune, the 'drops' seem to be going up to the moon instead of falling to the ground. In Le Soleil, the are falling from the sky. Curious, uh? That could have lots of meanings, specially if both cards came together...not to mention the opposition thing.

 

[Lee]

I saw some other things, hope you don't mind me adding

Not at all, that's why I posted the list, I want to see what other symbols can be seen.

I've noticed something (at least in the two TdMs i own - Universal and Fournier) - in La Lune, the 'drops' seem to be going up to the moon instead of falling to the ground. In Le Soleil, the are falling from the sky. Curious, uh? That could have lots of meanings, specially if both cards came together...not to mention the opposition thing.

Interestingly, in the Camoin deck, both Sun and Moon cards have the drops going in the same direction, with the pointy side of the drops pointed away from the celestial object.

 

[MareSaturni]

Not at all, that's why I posted the list, I want to see what other symbols can be seen.Interestingly, in the Camoin deck, both Sun and Moon cards have the drops going in the same direction, with the pointy side of the drops pointed away from the celestial object.

Curious! Isn't that the Camoin-Jodo deck? Because i remembered reading it was very very very accurate study of what the 'original' Marseilles would have been, but it seems the authors changes somethings, didn't they? I guess you mention that in your book :")

I think the drops going in different directions give an interesting possibility of meanings...why are they inverted in the cards? And why Camoin-Jodo put the all in the same direction? Or perhaps the 'original' Marseilles was like that, and the other, posterior versions (like Fournier) were done differently...?

So many questions!

 

[Paul]

I'm not sure how I'd feel about having a lexicon. It sounds a bit too much like reading-by-the-numbers. I suppose I'd want to see it just to get some new takes on symbols that I hadn't ever considered, but I don't think I'd want to do readings by consulting a lexicon.

I'm unclear, is there an actual book by Camoin on all of this in French? Are there definitive plans for a book in English?

I agree. A lexicon is straight-jacketing and removes the element of optical analogy from this method and all of its synchronicity and cleverness.

A book is forthcoming very soon. It is in its final editing phase, to my understanding. In my correspondence with M. Camoin, I have begged for an English translation. I can hang with the French language, but an English translation would open doors.

 

[Lee]

Curious! Isn't that the Camoin-Jodo deck? Because i remembered reading it was very very very accurate study of what the 'original' Marseilles would have been, but it seems the authors changes somethings, didn't they? I guess you mention that in your book :")

I do mention the Camoin-Jodo deck in my book, but only a few sentences' worth, unfortunately, because of lack of space.

Basically, Camoin and Jodorowsky claim that they examined many different Marseille decks and by comparing and eliminating, managed to reconstruct the "original" Marseille. Many people, including me, take this claim with a grain of salt. It seems rather that they picked and chose those elements that happened to appeal to them, and in some cases I believe they put in things which they did not find in any previous Marseille deck. For example, they encoded the Golden Dawn's Tree of Life into the buttons on the Hanged Man, something which surely they did not find in any previous Marseille deck. (I was rather pleased with myself for having noticed it, and apparently Jodorowsky mentions it in his book.)

On an aesthetic level I like the deck, particularly the coloring. It's a jolly deck, and I'm happy to use it when working with Camoin's method. It's also convenient for me because I have an uncut sheet of the deck framed and hanging in my office, just a few feet away from me as I type this!

I think the drops going in different directions give an interesting possibility of meanings...why are they inverted in the cards? And why Camoin-Jodo put the all in the same direction? Or perhaps the 'original' Marseilles was like that, and the other, posterior versions (like Fournier) were done differently...?

I don't have time now but later today I'll look in my Encyclopedias by Kaplan to see what different decks show for the drops on the Sun and Moon. I believe the Conver and thus the Grimaud show them as different, and the Fournier is based on the Grimaud. It would be interesting to know whether Camoin and Jodorowsky made the drops the same on both cards because of a Marseille deck which has them the same, or whether it was something they changed of their own volition, perhaps to create synchronicity of symbolism between the two cards as per Camoin's reading method.

In my correspondence with M. Camoin, I have begged for an English translation. I can hang with the French language, but an English translation would open doors.

I agree! Unfortunately I wouldn't be able to read the French edition at all, despite several years of grade-school French. I can understand the difficulties, though. It's too large a project to ask friends to do for free, and the expense of hiring a professional translator may be prohibitive.

 

[Lee]

It would be interesting to know whether Camoin and Jodorowsky made the drops the same on both cards because of a Marseille deck which has them the same, or whether it was something they changed of their own volition, perhaps to create synchronicity of symbolism between the two cards as per Camoin's reading method.

Sorry, I was half asleep when I posted that. The Noblet and the Dodal Marseille decks, both older than the Conver, show the Sun and Moon drops pointing in the same direction, same as the Camoin. So it appears in this case Camoin and Jodorowsky were correct in doing the same for their deck, at least to the extent that that particular symbolism matches that on older decks.

The most "original" proto-Marseille that we have access to, the Cary Sheet, shows drops with the pointy side away from the Sun, and the Moon card has no drops.

 

[MareSaturni]

Sorry, I was half asleep when I posted that. The Noblet and the Dodal Marseille decks, both older than the Conver, show the Sun and Moon drops pointing in the same direction, same as the Camoin. So it appears in this case Camoin and Jodorowsky were correct in doing the same for their deck, at least to the extent that that particular symbolism matches that on older decks.

Thanks for the information Lee
Well, each Marseilles has it's own personality...i like the drops pointing to different direction, but then again, i haven't seen a Camoin Marseilles or a Noblet in my life ever. When i get my Hadar i'll see how these drops looks there

Ever learning, aren't we? Today i saw for sale the Paul Marteau's book about the Marseilles deck, real cheap. It was in Spanish, piece of cake to me, but i didn't have money with me. I plan to return to that place and get it...anyway, ir reminded of you for some reason :O

I hope Camoin allow the translation of his book, i read much better in English. But if it only comes in french, it'll be a bit more difficult, but won't necessarily be a problem to me. A shame many Marseilles-lovers who don't read french would miss it

 

[Lee]

Well, each Marseilles has it's own personality...i like the drops pointing to different direction, but then again, i haven't seen a Camoin Marseilles or a Noblet in my life ever. When i get my Hadar i'll see how these drops looks there

The Hadar has them pointing differently, same as the Conver/Grimaud/Fournier.

Personally, I agree with you, Marina, I like them pointing differently too. And you're right, each Marseille deck has its own unique personality. Some people seem to think the Fournier is a rather low-brow Marseille, but it's one of my favorites. The Hadar is muted and understated in its coloring, and, as I look at it now, is rather conservative in its overall adherence to Conver. The pips on the Hadar are very elegantly done. Another deck with very elegant pips is the Rodes-Sanchez.

So many decks, so little time...